(NEWBIE) How to use an (Fanuc) AC Spindle servo motor for an DIY CNC router

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12 Mar 2017 01:23 #89450 by denhen89
Thanks for that!

Does it mean i can use an new VFD for that Spindle motor?

Do i need to replace the encoder with an newer one to do rigid tapping and use an ATC ?

Thanks in advance!
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13 Mar 2017 13:14 #89515 by andypugh
You should be able to use any suitably-rated VFD. If the currently-fitted encoder works then there is probably a way to interface it with LinuxCNC.
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13 Mar 2017 14:18 #89519 by mclausen
I have a Fanuc spindle on my older mill (stock Fanuc control, not LinuxCNC). It can orient for tool changes or broaching. I don't think you will be able to orient with a VFD drive.
Mine can tap with a tension-compression holder, but will not rigid tap.
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13 Mar 2017 14:25 #89520 by mclausen
If you want to use a ATC with a VFD spindle you may be able to do like some HAAS machines and use a lock pin to orient the spindle. It turns slowly until the pin drops into a slot.
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13 Mar 2017 14:55 #89524 by andypugh
LinuxCNC does support rigid-tapping with a VFD-controlled AC motor. It does this by slaving the Z-axis to the spindle encoder, rather than by trying to accurately control the spindle position.

It is also entirely possible to align a spindle with a conventional motor and VFD, quite a few LinuxCNC machines do exactly that.
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13 Mar 2017 15:01 #89527 by mclausen
Sorry if I was misleading. I'm a newbie too.
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13 Mar 2017 17:33 #89535 by denhen89
Thanks, especially to andypugh.
@"If the currently-fitted encoder works then there is probably a way to interface it with LinuxCNC."
Really, could that work ? I ask, because here in this thread on SITE 1 / Last post, the user PCW wrote: "Note that the encoder has no commutation pins". Maybe i do understand it completly wrong, but how can i then connect it to the VFD. For example, VFD Vector drives like YASKAWA A1000 needs an incremental encoder.

There are still some questions i have where i could really need some help.

1. VFD (very important):
The motor needs an of 3phase 200V INPUT, but my suppy in my workshop has 3phase 380-400v. When i look at the parameters of VFDs (vectro drive) there are always 2-3 volt versions:
version 1: INPUT: 380-400v, OUTPUT: 380-400v
version 2: INPUT: 200-240v, OUTPUT: 200-240v
*version 3: 690v...., but thats of course not the right one for me
On some pages there is this kind of info for 380V-400V:
INPUT :3 ~ 380..480V +-10%/-15%, 50/60 Hz +-5%
OUTPUT: 3 ~ 0 - 380..480V
So, when there reads "OUTPUT: 0 - 380..480V", does that mean i can choose the voltage from 0-480V ? Or do i need an step-down transfomer (from 380v-400v to 200v-240v) between my 3phase 380V and the VFD (version 2. 200V-240V input and output) ?

2. Boards, cards, etc. (very important)
Could you tell me which cards, boards, etc. i need to use the VFD with the AC spindle motor and do all those things like rigid tapping and using an ATC ? Of course i tryed to find the information by my own, but im just not sure: Do i just need MESA 7i77 + 5i25 Plug and Go kit and an Motion board?(+ PC and linuxCNC) ? Where do i know which is the right motion board - is it depending on if i use hybrid closed loop steppers or servo motors for my XYZ Axis ?

3. Used industrial servo motor for axis :
When buying used servo motors (for axis) without the original drives, which "new" servo drives can i then use for the servo motors ? I saw many poeple retrofiting there mills and lathe with new drives, but keeping the old servo motors.

4. ATC (not that important, because its something i want to "maybe" use in future - want to have that option open):
I have read that its necessary to always zeroing the Z-axes to use an ATC, is that true ? The questions might be a bit too generally, but thats because i dont understand it very.
4.1 ATC: Is it difficult for an newbie to do the settings to use an ATC ? Is there any tutorial, or some easy way to set it up?

5. Rigid tapping (not that important, but would like to know for future) :
Is it difficult to set it up on LinuxCNC ? Do i need some extra card, board or anything?


Thats all. Hope you can help me out with that.

BR,
Denis
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13 Mar 2017 19:45 #89544 by andypugh

denhen89 wrote: @"If the currently-fitted encoder works then there is probably a way to interface it with LinuxCNC."
Really, could that work ? I ask, because here in this thread on SITE 1 / Last post, the user PCW wrote: "Note that the encoder has no commutation pins". Maybe i do understand it completly wrong, but how can i then connect it to the VFD. For example, VFD Vector drives like YASKAWA A1000 needs an incremental encoder.

An induction motor does not need commutation signals.
Some VFDs need an encoder, some don't. Sensorless ones are easier (and cheaper) to deal with.
LinuxCNC does need an encoder for tapping and spindle-orient.
The encoder actually needs to be on the spindle, not on the motor, unless the drive is exactly 1:1and using a toothed belt.

So, when there reads "OUTPUT: 0 - 380..480V", does that mean i can choose the voltage from 0-480V ? Or do i need an step-down transfomer (from 380v-400v to 200v-240v) between my 3phase 380V and the VFD (version 2. 200V-240V input and output) ?


This has never been my problem, but I think that you can do this with the V/F curve
www.vfds.org/variable-frequency-drive-li...teristic-923331.html

Could you tell me which cards, boards, etc. i need to use the VFD with the AC spindle motor and do all those things like rigid tapping and using an ATC ?

This depends on the VFD, but in many cases you can do this with a $2 USB to Modbus dongle. For better real-time performance, though, something outputting analogue voltage and direction is likely to work better. Many simple (and complex) break-put boards have this feature built-in.

Where do i know which is the right motion board - is it depending on if i use hybrid closed loop steppers or servo motors for my XYZ Axis ?

Yes, the interface board you need will depend on the other components of the system.

When buying used servo motors (for axis) without the original drives, which "new" servo drives can i then use for the servo motors ? I saw many poeple retrofiting there mills and lathe with new drives, but keeping the old servo motors.

This depends on the servo motors, and on whether they are DC or brushless, and in the latter case what commutation signals they have.
Some motors really won't work without their matched drives. You need to do research on specific models as they pop up on eBay.
Some time ago I made the mistake of buying some nice servo motors which had resolvers for feedback and commutation. I ended up writing a driver for the Mesa resolver interface card. (Which is now included in LinuxCNC, and, actually, resolvers are more standard than some of the proprietary serial-quadrature encoders)

ATC (not that important, because its something i want to "maybe" use in future - want to have that option open):
I have read that its necessary to always zeroing the Z-axes to use an ATC, is that true ? The questions might be a bit too generally, but thats because i dont understand it very.

You will need to home the Z axis anyway to have any hope of making repeatable parts. It's just part of the machine turn-on process.

4.1 ATC: Is it difficult for an newbie to do the settings to use an ATC ? Is there any tutorial, or some easy way to set it up?

Sorry to be unhelpful, but it very much depends on the ATC. Some are easier than others.

5. Rigid tapping (not that important, but would like to know for future) :
Is it difficult to set it up on LinuxCNC

If you have a spindle encoder and LinuxCNC can reverse the spindle motor, then that's all you need.
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13 Mar 2017 20:44 - 13 Mar 2017 21:01 #89548 by denhen89
Andypugh, thank you soooo much! Was just on a walk with my dog and thought about it how god damn difficult it is for someone like me. I just thought about it why no company has an "configurator" like that one what PC Hardware shops have, where you can configure your computer. Lets say you choose an AMD processor, and in the next step you have to choose the motherboard, but you can only choose an motherboard which fits to the processor. Dont want to write all down what i was thinking the whole time while walking out my dog, but that would make it much easier for poeple like me.

Again, im really thankful for answering all my questions. Now, i can say i have make an step forward, after many days..

I will not get back to all your answers, because you have answered them just perfectly and i almost understand everything, but i have just 2 more questions about the parts i need from Mesa (have wrote already 3 days ago an mail to them but got no answer):

Question 1: Components
You know already my spindle setup (AC spindle motor with Vector drive VFD + encoder on spindle or motor (depending on ratio, but im pretty sure i will use 1:1 through toothed belt)).
Now lets say i want to use real brushless servo motors with servo drive for my XYZ axis.
For example that ones (german site): www.cncprofi.eu/product_info.php?info=p7...n-fl--130x130mm.html

Is then this setup the right for me:
MESA 6I25 Superport FPGA based PCIE Anything I/O card
MESA 7I77 Analog servo interface plus I/O daughtercard

I have read all the descriptions of both components and it sounds like that would fit (unfortunately, the most stuff i dont really understand), but do i need any other components like cards, boards, etc.? I ask, because the have PLUG AND GO kits (7I77-6I25), which sounds for me like thats all i need.

Question 2:
If the 6i25 is correct, then this card needs to be mounted trough the PCIE slot to my PC motherboard and install an Driver, or am i wrong?

If you or someone could only help me with that, then i think i can tomorrow start to learn Solidworks while drawing my project.

Would be really an big step forward and i could start to close almost 40 windows on google chrome..

BR
Denis
Last Edit: 13 Mar 2017 21:01 by denhen89.
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13 Mar 2017 23:49 #89564 by andypugh

denhen89 wrote: Andypugh, thank you soooo much! Was just on a walk with my dog and thought about it how god damn difficult it is for someone like me. I just thought about it why no company has an "configurator" like that one what PC Hardware shops have, where you can configure your computer. Lets say you choose an AMD processor


JT's shop has some guideline diagrams on the front page:
www.mesaus.com

There are three manufacturers that I know of who actively support LinuxCNC use with their hardware
www.pico-systems.com/motion.html
www.generalmechatronics.com/en/linuxcnc
store.mesanet.com

I don't make specific hardware recommendations, I feel that I need to remain impartial in my advice.

I have read all the descriptions of both components and it sounds like that would fit (unfortunately, the most stuff i dont really understand), but do i need any other components like cards, boards, etc.? I ask, because the have PLUG AND GO kits (7I77-6I25), which sounds for me like thats all i need.


If those servo drives take +/- 10V analogue commands then yes, the 7i77/6i25 kit would work well, and would probably be all that you needed. Depending on the machine you might need to add on an extra smart-serial card for extra GPIO, or possibly something like a 7i73 to simplify control-panel wiring.

Pico and GM also have compatible options.

If the 6i25 is correct, then this card needs to be mounted trough the PCIE slot to my PC motherboard and install an Driver, or am i wrong?

No driver installation needed. LinuxCNC includes code to access all the hardware I have mentioned.
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