double pid loop ?

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10 years 3 months ago #77622 by vre
double pid loop ? was created by vre
I have ac servos 1.8kw that accept step-dir 500khz in position mode and analog -10+10v in velocity mode.
In position mode the drives have internal pid loop is possible to tune outer pid loop in linuxcnc ?
I mean with 2 pid loops 1 in drive and 1 in linuxcnc will be conflict between 2 pid loops ?

I made a simple breakout for 5i24 with 1 AM26LS31 & 1 AM26LS32 for testing in position mode with step dir
and possition feedback to linuxcnc but the operation is not stable i have some oscillation and delays to go in commanded possition
in last 0.05mm and some overshoot.
Is possible to pid tune in linuxcnc this setup or i must go for analog and have only one pid loop in linuxcnc and not in drive ?
Are there tutorials for tunning pid tunning for these 2 configs ?

Also if i get one 7i33TA for analog driving in speed mode how can i connect the spindle because pwm outputs from 7i33
are -10v +10v and my vfd for spindle gets 0-10v and has 2 pins for cw and ccw.Must make a new breakout that convert -10v +10v
to 0-10v CW CCW ?
7i33TA cooperates with 5i24 SVST4_8 firmware ?

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10 years 3 months ago #77623 by PCW
Replied by PCW on topic double pid loop ?
It should be possible to tune the 2 PID loops
Note that most of the tuning will be with FF1

a 7I33 will work with 0-10 just fine, you just dont supply negative PWM values
(motion has a absolute spindle speed pin that can be used for this)

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10 years 3 months ago #77624 by vre
Replied by vre on topic double pid loop ?
Are there pid tuning tutorials for both speed and position mode ?
With 7i33 i undestand can output 0-10V but can output the ccw cw signals ?

i have tested now with P=1 FF1=1 others=0 and does not overshoot does not oscillate but delays to travel the last 0.05mm-0.005mm

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10 years 3 months ago #77645 by PCW
Replied by PCW on topic double pid loop ?

Are there pid tuning tutorials for both speed and position mode ?
With 7i33 i undestand can output 0-10V but can output the ccw cw signals ?


No, but you can use other I/O pins for this (and motion provides spindle forward and spindle reverse hal pins to drive the I/O)

i have tested now with P=1 FF1=1 others=0 and does not overshoot does not oscillate but delays to travel the last 0.05mm-0.005mm


Note that FF1=1 will only work if the input and output scale are both in machine units, is this the case?

can you post your hal/ini files here?

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10 years 3 months ago #77659 by vre
Replied by vre on topic double pid loop ?
this is a test config look only Z axis
1mm/revolution
Code:
# Generated by PNCconf at Tue Jul 19 02:19:23 2016 # If you make changes to this file, they will be # overwritten when you run PNCconf again [EMC] MACHINE = test1 DEBUG = 0 [DISPLAY] DISPLAY = axis POSITION_OFFSET = MACHINE POSITION_FEEDBACK = ACTUAL MAX_FEED_OVERRIDE = 2.000000 MAX_SPINDLE_OVERRIDE = 1.000000 MIN_SPINDLE_OVERRIDE = 0.500000 INTRO_GRAPHIC = linuxcnc.gif INTRO_TIME = 5 PROGRAM_PREFIX = /home/labros/linuxcnc/nc_files INCREMENTS = 5mm 1mm .5mm .1mm .05mm .01mm .005mm LATHE = 1 POSITION_FEEDBACK = ACTUAL DEFAULT_LINEAR_VELOCITY = 16.666667 MAX_LINEAR_VELOCITY = 32.500000 MIN_LINEAR_VELOCITY = 0.000000 DEFAULT_ANGULAR_VELOCITY = 0.250000 MAX_ANGULAR_VELOCITY = 1.000000 MIN_ANGULAR_VELOCITY = 0.010000 EDITOR = gedit GEOMETRY = xyz [FILTER] PROGRAM_EXTENSION = .png,.gif,.jpg Greyscale Depth Image PROGRAM_EXTENSION = .py Python Script png = image-to-gcode gif = image-to-gcode jpg = image-to-gcode py = python [TASK] TASK = milltask CYCLE_TIME = 0.010 [RS274NGC] PARAMETER_FILE = linuxcnc.var [EMCMOT] EMCMOT = motmod COMM_TIMEOUT = 1.0 COMM_WAIT = 0.010 SERVO_PERIOD = 1000000 [HOSTMOT2] # **** This is for info only **** # DRIVER0=hm2_pci # BOARD0=5i24 [HAL] HALUI = halui HALFILE = test1.hal HALFILE = custom.hal POSTGUI_HALFILE = postgui_call_list.hal SHUTDOWN = shutdown.hal [HALUI] [TRAJ] AXES = 3 COORDINATES = X Z LINEAR_UNITS = mm ANGULAR_UNITS = degree CYCLE_TIME = 0.010 DEFAULT_VELOCITY = 3.25 MAX_VELOCITY = 32.50 [EMCIO] EMCIO = io CYCLE_TIME = 0.100 TOOL_TABLE = tool.tbl #******************** # Axis X #******************** [AXIS_0] TYPE = LINEAR HOME = 0.0 FERROR = 10.0 MIN_FERROR = 1.0 MAX_VELOCITY = 32.5 MAX_ACCELERATION = 750.0 # The values below should be 25% larger than MAX_VELOCITY and MAX_ACCELERATION # If using BACKLASH compensation STEPGEN_MAXACCEL should be 100% larger. STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 40.62 STEPGEN_MAXACCEL = 937.50 P = 50.0 I = 0.0 D = 0.0 FF0 = 0.0 FF1 = 1.0 FF2 = 0.0 BIAS = 0.0 DEADBAND = 0.0 MAX_OUTPUT = 0.0 # these are in nanoseconds DIRSETUP = 1500 DIRHOLD = 1500 STEPLEN = 1500 STEPSPACE = 1500 STEP_SCALE = 10000.0 MIN_LIMIT = -400.0 MAX_LIMIT = 400.0 HOME_OFFSET = 0.0 #******************** # Axis Z #******************** [AXIS_2] TYPE = LINEAR HOME = 0.0 FERROR = 50.0 MIN_FERROR = 10.0 MAX_VELOCITY = 32.5 MAX_ACCELERATION = 1000 # The values below should be 25% larger than MAX_VELOCITY and MAX_ACCELERATION # If using BACKLASH compensation STEPGEN_MAXACCEL should be 100% larger. STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 40.62 STEPGEN_MAXACCEL = 1250 P = 1.0 I = 0.0 D = 0.0 FF0 = 0.0 FF1 = 1.0 FF2 = 0.0 BIAS = 0.0 DEADBAND = 0.0 MAX_OUTPUT = 0.0 ENCODER_SCALE = 10000.0 # these are in nanoseconds DIRSETUP = 1500 DIRHOLD = 1500 STEPLEN = 1500 STEPSPACE = 1500 STEP_SCALE = 10000.0 MIN_LIMIT = -1000.0 MAX_LIMIT = 1000.0 HOME_OFFSET = 0.0 #******************** # Spindle #******************** [SPINDLE_9] P = 0 I = 0 D = 0 FF0 = 1 FF1 = 0 FF2 = 0 BIAS = 0 DEADBAND = 0 MAX_OUTPUT = 2000

Code:
# Generated by PNCconf at Tue Jul 19 02:19:23 2016 # If you make changes to this file, they will be # overwritten when you run PNCconf again loadrt trivkins loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT servo_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]SERVO_PERIOD num_joints=[TRAJ]AXES loadrt hostmot2 loadrt hm2_pci config="firmware=hm2/5i24/SVST4_8.BIT num_encoders=1 num_pwmgens=0 num_stepgens=2" setp hm2_5i24.0.watchdog.timeout_ns 5000000 loadrt pid names=pid.x,pid.z,pid.s addf hm2_5i24.0.read servo-thread addf motion-command-handler servo-thread addf motion-controller servo-thread addf pid.x.do-pid-calcs servo-thread addf pid.z.do-pid-calcs servo-thread addf pid.s.do-pid-calcs servo-thread addf hm2_5i24.0.write servo-thread # external output signals # external input signals #******************* # AXIS X #******************* setp pid.x.Pgain [AXIS_0]P setp pid.x.Igain [AXIS_0]I setp pid.x.Dgain [AXIS_0]D setp pid.x.bias [AXIS_0]BIAS setp pid.x.FF0 [AXIS_0]FF0 setp pid.x.FF1 [AXIS_0]FF1 setp pid.x.FF2 [AXIS_0]FF2 setp pid.x.deadband [AXIS_0]DEADBAND setp pid.x.maxoutput [AXIS_0]MAX_OUTPUT setp pid.x.error-previous-target true setp pid.x.maxerror .0005 net x-index-enable <=> pid.x.index-enable net x-enable => pid.x.enable net x-pos-cmd => pid.x.command net x-vel-cmd => pid.x.command-deriv net x-pos-fb => pid.x.feedback net x-output => pid.x.output # Step Gen signals/setup setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.dirsetup [AXIS_0]DIRSETUP setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.dirhold [AXIS_0]DIRHOLD setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.steplen [AXIS_0]STEPLEN setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.stepspace [AXIS_0]STEPSPACE setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.position-scale [AXIS_0]STEP_SCALE setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.step_type 0 setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.control-type 1 setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.maxaccel [AXIS_0]STEPGEN_MAXACCEL setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.maxvel [AXIS_0]STEPGEN_MAXVEL # ---closedloop stepper signals--- net x-pos-cmd <= axis.0.motor-pos-cmd net x-vel-cmd <= axis.0.joint-vel-cmd net x-output <= hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.velocity-cmd net x-pos-fb <= hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.position-fb net x-pos-fb => axis.0.motor-pos-fb net x-enable <= axis.0.amp-enable-out net x-enable => hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.01.enable # ---setup home / limit switch signals--- net x-home-sw => axis.0.home-sw-in net x-neg-limit => axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in net x-pos-limit => axis.0.pos-lim-sw-in #******************* # AXIS Z #******************* setp pid.z.Pgain [AXIS_2]P setp pid.z.Igain [AXIS_2]I setp pid.z.Dgain [AXIS_2]D setp pid.z.bias [AXIS_2]BIAS setp pid.z.FF0 [AXIS_2]FF0 setp pid.z.FF1 [AXIS_2]FF1 setp pid.z.FF2 [AXIS_2]FF2 setp pid.z.deadband [AXIS_2]DEADBAND setp pid.z.maxoutput [AXIS_2]MAX_OUTPUT setp pid.z.error-previous-target true setp pid.z.maxerror .0005 net z-index-enable <=> pid.z.index-enable net z-enable => pid.z.enable net z-pos-cmd => pid.z.command net z-vel-cmd => pid.z.command-deriv net z-pos-fb => pid.z.feedback net z-output => pid.z.output # Step Gen signals/setup setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.dirsetup [AXIS_2]DIRSETUP setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.dirhold [AXIS_2]DIRHOLD setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.steplen [AXIS_2]STEPLEN setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.stepspace [AXIS_2]STEPSPACE setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.position-scale [AXIS_2]STEP_SCALE setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.step_type 0 setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.control-type 1 setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.maxaccel [AXIS_2]STEPGEN_MAXACCEL setp hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.maxvel [AXIS_2]STEPGEN_MAXVEL # ---closedloop stepper signals--- net z-pos-cmd <= axis.2.motor-pos-cmd net z-vel-cmd <= axis.2.joint-vel-cmd net z-output <= hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.velocity-cmd #net z-pos-fb <= hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.position-fb net z-pos-fb => axis.2.motor-pos-fb net z-enable <= axis.2.amp-enable-out net z-enable => hm2_5i24.0.stepgen.00.enable # ---Encoder feedback signals/setup--- setp hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.counter-mode 0 setp hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.filter 1 setp hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.index-invert 0 setp hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.index-mask 0 setp hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.index-mask-invert 0 setp hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.scale [AXIS_2]ENCODER_SCALE net z-pos-fb <= hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.position net z-vel-fb <= hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.velocity net z-pos-fb => axis.2.motor-pos-fb net z-index-enable axis.2.index-enable <=> hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.index-enable net z-pos-rawcounts <= hm2_5i24.0.encoder.00.rawcounts # ---setup home / limit switch signals--- net z-home-sw => axis.2.home-sw-in net z-neg-limit => axis.2.neg-lim-sw-in net z-pos-limit => axis.2.pos-lim-sw-in #******************* # SPINDLE S #******************* setp pid.s.Pgain [SPINDLE_9]P setp pid.s.Igain [SPINDLE_9]I setp pid.s.Dgain [SPINDLE_9]D setp pid.s.bias [SPINDLE_9]BIAS setp pid.s.FF0 [SPINDLE_9]FF0 setp pid.s.FF1 [SPINDLE_9]FF1 setp pid.s.FF2 [SPINDLE_9]FF2 setp pid.s.deadband [SPINDLE_9]DEADBAND setp pid.s.maxoutput [SPINDLE_9]MAX_OUTPUT setp pid.s.error-previous-target true net spindle-index-enable <=> pid.s.index-enable net spindle-enable => pid.s.enable net spindle-vel-cmd-rpm => pid.s.command net spindle-vel-fb-rpm => pid.s.feedback net spindle-output <= pid.s.output # ---setup spindle control signals--- net spindle-vel-cmd-rps <= motion.spindle-speed-out-rps net spindle-vel-cmd-rps-abs <= motion.spindle-speed-out-rps-abs net spindle-vel-cmd-rpm <= motion.spindle-speed-out net spindle-vel-cmd-rpm-abs <= motion.spindle-speed-out-abs net spindle-enable <= motion.spindle-on net spindle-cw <= motion.spindle-forward net spindle-ccw <= motion.spindle-reverse net spindle-brake <= motion.spindle-brake net spindle-revs => motion.spindle-revs net spindle-at-speed => motion.spindle-at-speed net spindle-vel-fb-rps => motion.spindle-speed-in net spindle-index-enable <=> motion.spindle-index-enable # ---Setup spindle at speed signals--- sets spindle-at-speed true #****************************** # connect miscellaneous signals #****************************** # ---HALUI signals--- net joint-select-a halui.joint.0.select net x-is-homed halui.joint.0.is-homed net jog-x-pos halui.jog.0.plus net jog-x-neg halui.jog.0.minus net jog-x-analog halui.jog.0.analog net joint-select-c halui.joint.2.select net z-is-homed halui.joint.2.is-homed net jog-z-pos halui.jog.2.plus net jog-z-neg halui.jog.2.minus net jog-z-analog halui.jog.2.analog net jog-selected-pos halui.jog.selected.plus net jog-selected-neg halui.jog.selected.minus net spindle-manual-cw halui.spindle.forward net spindle-manual-ccw halui.spindle.reverse net spindle-manual-stop halui.spindle.stop net machine-is-on halui.machine.is-on net jog-speed halui.jog-speed net MDI-mode halui.mode.is-mdi # ---coolant signals--- net coolant-mist <= iocontrol.0.coolant-mist net coolant-flood <= iocontrol.0.coolant-flood # ---probe signal--- net probe-in => motion.probe-input # ---motion control signals--- net in-position <= motion.in-position net machine-is-enabled <= motion.motion-enabled # ---digital in / out signals--- # ---estop signals--- net estop-out <= iocontrol.0.user-enable-out net estop-out => iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in # ---manual tool change signals--- loadusr -W hal_manualtoolchange net tool-change-request iocontrol.0.tool-change => hal_manualtoolchange.change net tool-change-confirmed iocontrol.0.tool-changed <= hal_manualtoolchange.changed net tool-number iocontrol.0.tool-prep-number => hal_manualtoolchange.number net tool-prepare-loopback iocontrol.0.tool-prepare => iocontrol.0.tool-prepared

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10 years 3 months ago #77660 by PCW
Replied by PCW on topic double pid loop ?
For open loop stepgen (X currently) I would set P to 1000

For closed loop, can you not set P higher than 1 and remain stable?

(P=1 means a 1 mm error will cause a velocity adjustment of 1 mm/sec)

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10 years 3 months ago #77662 by vre
Replied by vre on topic double pid loop ?
My config is ok for Z ?
if i set P=50 for Z oscillates & overshoots

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10 years 3 months ago #77663 by PCW
Replied by PCW on topic double pid loop ?
Looks OK though a P of 1 is probably way too low

There's quite a range between 1 and 50.
You need to find the maximum stable P value for best performance
(this is no different on analog interfaces)

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10 years 3 months ago #77664 by vre
Replied by vre on topic double pid loop ?
In what range must i set FF1 ?

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10 years 3 months ago #77665 by Todd Zuercher
Replied by Todd Zuercher on topic double pid loop ?
Did you follow the servo manufactures procedures for properly tuning the drives first?
Linuxcnc can't be expected to work properly with a position mode servo drive if the drive isn't properly tuned first.

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