Spindle Situation

tommylight wrote:

I might be missing something, but from reading this, we have
-a iffy motor
-even iffy-er drive
-eager to buy an iffy-est drive
-for several hundred $ used !!!
-
That is the point where i would stop, hand brake on and sliding sideways!
The motor has hal sensors, have a look at Granite devices drives, step/dir, analog, and some other stuff, costs under 500$, works as advertised, quite easy to setup, and good customer care if you can get stuff to Finland.
What i do not get it, you can get a new motor and drive for 300$, more power and not iffy, but OK servo system.
Why?
On the parallel port side, using a low count encoder can get quite usable, can do only step/dir, quadrature, PWM, no analog. That low count must be quite low, like 50-100PPM for a 3-5K spindle.
With no feedback to LinuxCNC you can do any speed, as long as it uses one of the above control types.
 

Tommy - thank you as usual, especially for the LPT advice.

The Ultra 3000 drive isn't the least bit 'iffy' - they're awesome servo drives - just a bit old and not as plug-n-play as other options.

Existing motor isn't 'iffy'.  But the OEM drive is terrible - not just 'iffy.'

If the OP wants to re-use his spindle motor (i.e. zero mechanical changes) then the cheapest way is to get a used U3k servo drive and turn the BLDC in to a servo. Maybe $100-150 for an ebay drive, maybe another $40 for the encoder, $40 for the cable.  Chop up a $10 HD26 cable for the drive IO connections.

If the OP is open to mechanical alterations, then a modbus-capable VFD and a 1hp or 1/5hp induction motor would probably be the simplest from a wiring standpoint.  Still need an encoder, but that could be a cheapo thing driven from the spindle directly.

And there's always the possibility of sticking in one of the cheap 1kw/80mm or 1.8kw/130mm servos from the usual sources.

The OP hasn't indicated what their capabilities are.  Are they more comfortable with electrical/electroncs?  Or machining a motor adapter?  Or neither/both?

 

Ok yea awesome then I think I should get a mesa board too then. Should I get the mesa 7i76ed or the mesa 7i76e or does it matter? It would be nice to ditch the parallel port and run ethernet. The machine is pretty old but it had never been used till I got it. I’m going to school for advanced manufacturing and I think this stuff is fun, so had to buy one. That and it was a good deal, I think. Also is running a Mesa going to make it any easier to configure an Allen Bradley ULTRA 3000? I’d think the other original motor drives in the cabinet would still be perfectly good too since they are S&D controlled. Also, I went and downloaded both the user manual for an Ultra 3000 and the Ultraware configuration program. It looks way better than what came with my pos spindle machine information wise. But I think I could figure it out and the cables shouldn't be that much trouble from the looks of it. Might need some special connectors and maybe a crimp tool but I’m up to the challenge. Ill keep you posted on its progress in between shipments of the stuff. You are creditable for all I've learned so far on this stuff, thanks man… Oh, but one other last question before I go and kill my wallet. Does it matter which CUI encoder I'm going to want to run just as long as it fits the 8mm shaft and has the correct bolt spacing? Dose it specifically have to be the AMT31 Series to communicate with the Ultra 3000 driver? I looked at the pinouts between the driver and the different encoders and they all kind of looked the same except some had 4 pins and others had up to 17 pins. Anyways I’m going start with buying the Mesa board and the Ultra 3000 then the encoder last. Let me know if I'm being an idiot lol, thanks

Dave2024 wrote:

Let me know if I'm being an idiot lol, thanks

Idiot is a strong term.  Perhaps Impulsive would be appropriate.

• Yes, the encoder model matters
  • You are asking questions about how the encoder 'communicates' with the U3K drive - this indicates you aren't familiar with encoder signal types. Can you read the encoder datasheet and determine what output signal type is has, and if that's compatible with the U3K?
  • "Might need special connectors" indicates you've no idea about how to physically connect an encoder to the drive, or at least you haven't done this yet in meat-space.  Also indicating, at least to me, that you don't know some of the subtleties of cable shielding.
  • You should be able to determine, after reading the drive manual and encoder data sheets, which encoder model to choose, and not just guess.
    • Do you need commutation?  Do you know what this is and how it's implemented?
    • Do you need differential or single-ended signals?
    • Do you need an index signal? Does the encoder have an index signal, and is this optional or standard?
  • Do you know why some of the CUI encoders have 14 pin connectors and others have 17-pin?
• What kind of cables do you need?
  • How many conductors? Shielding? What kind of shielding?
  • How many amps for power?  What gauge conductors are OK?
• Mesa boards are not strictly necessary for LCNC, but are highly recommended (by many LCNC users)
  • You ask which one to get... have you read the "Which Mesa Board Should I Get?" post in the Driver Board sub-forum?
    • I know the guy who wrote it, I can have a word with him if it's not helpful.
• Do you have a wiring diagram?
• Do you have access to schematic or diagram software?
• Do you know the difference between sinking & sourcing inputs & outputs?

What I'm trying to convey is that you appear to have no actual plan.  You have some ideas, but not a clear and easily achieved roadmap for success.  And everything I've blathered on about above matters.

Which is why I've been suggesting not purchasing anything until you have a written plan - or at least you can, in your head, articulate to yourself

"I'm buying encoder XYZ because it has the following characteristics..., and i will connect it to ABC drive using cable 123 (which has a matching connector to ABC).  I need the following inputs to the drive, and those signals will come from 987 board (or my PC's Port X, PinY).  Those signals are 3.3/5/12/24 volts and NNN milliamps which is compatible with ABC drive.  ABC will output the following signals to my PC, via the following pins/cable, to achieve closed-loop control.  I need to set the drive's electronic gear ratio to NNN so I can drive the S&D signals at YYY kHz maximum to achieve ZZZ rpm at the spindle. I've got X amps continuous and 350V for the power cable, so I need bla-bla-bla to connect the drive output power."

Once you can articulate all that to yourself, then you might think about spending some money.

Or save yourself some headache and buy an off-the-shelf new servo drive & motor combo and be done with it.

I don't know if ill be able to fit a new spindle in the head on this machine. Its got a removable air vent thing on the bottom that might be able to let a new spindle stick out through but for the time being id like to attempt to keep running the original and attach an encoder to it. I already went and ordered the older Ultra300 driver and its going to be a hella lot better that the stock drive which is basically a huge compositor bank looking thing all soldered together with no instructions or diagrams anywhere to be found. Also I'm going to get a Mesa board to put in there also so I can ditch the parallel cable. Also with the Mesa board I think Ill have a couple options on how to connect the encoder. Can possible connect the encoder to the Mesa board or to the Ultra3000. I still don't know much about this stuff but I'm sure I'm at least capable of not burning anything up. For the time being I think this project is going to take a while till I wait on the components to come in the mail

If you don't connect the encoder to the drive, the drive won't work.  Period.

You can send the encoder signals to the Mesa board (LCNC) one of two ways:

• Drive's encoder outputs
  • Can be programmed as unbuffered, direct pass-through to Mesa board
  • Or programmed as buffered, but with a 'gear ratio' to keep the encoder signal frequency low
• Encoder "Y" type splitter
  • Encoder signals are connected to the splitter, and then to both the drive AND the Mesa board.
  • Mesa sells a differential encoder splitter.  Very nice, very cheap.

Note that most servo drives are 'basically a huge capacitor bank looking thing all soldered together' inside their nice-looking cases.

Do you have 240VAC single-phase power available for the Ultra 3k?  It will work on 120VAC, but your DC bus voltage will be lower and the drive won't be able to spin the motor at full RPM.

My suggestions about using a different motor perhaps should have been more specific.  I was suggesting having the motor stick UP from the head (i.e. reversed from existing arrangement).  You have plenty of room above the head; a simple mounting plate and some spacers would put the motor pulley at the correct elevation to line up with the existing spindle pulley.

And if you go that route, you could use a VFD and an induction motor... which would be WAY easier than what you're contemplating now.  Power the VFD, one cable to the motor, one Modbus to the VFD - done.  Add an encoder later once it's running open-loop.

I believe there are a couple YT vids where the authors did exactly that - convert a Syil X4 to VFD and induction motor.

Ok well thanks allot for all the info spumco. You guys are pros! Ill be sure and in a few weeks keep you guys posted on this and let you know the outcome. Thanks again take care and hopefully ill even make a little video or pictures of it all coming together crediting you guys for the insight.  

Edit: Oh also for now its going to be 120v ill switch it over to 220v after i got it all bench tested so not to blow my cabinet up at first 

Good luck.  Let us know how it goes.

solution for spindle motor 
you can use used servo motor with new gen vfd, some type can drive PM motor really good (sensorless/sensor), like inovance md500e