Anyone familiar with this machine?

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01 Aug 2011 18:25 #12096 by garym1957
I'm not sure what to expect. I like the numbers but I'm not sure what that equates to in real life. .002" is pretty tight if the advertising is for real.

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01 Aug 2011 18:54 #12097 by andypugh
garym1957 wrote:

I'm not sure what to expect. I like the numbers but I'm not sure what that equates to in real life. .002" is pretty tight if the advertising is for real.

5mm pitch, 200 steps per rev = 0.001", so they aren't claiming stepper resolution.
I imagine it can position to the stated accuracy, after which the size of the cut and the stiffness of the machine control the ultimate accuracy.

Worst case, in year or so you will know what you really want and/or need. You might find your budget increases.
(Yes, this is the voice of experience)

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01 Aug 2011 19:00 - 01 Aug 2011 19:14 #12098 by garym1957
Wow. I just heard from the guy at Keling. He told me I don't want the "hobby" machine. He said I would be disappointed in its performance. He did say the linear bearings were fully supported. The 16mm ball screws are 5TPI which I'm not sure that better than a 1/2 10TPI which people seem to like.
We had a bit of a language issue. I speak English and he speaks something else. I'm still unsure if that machine can take a router attachment or if it can only work with an expensive spindle. (I do plan on buying a real spindle down the road).

I genuinely can't tell if the gentleman was truly worried about me making the wrong purchase or if he is a diabolical genius at the upsell. He has a nice 4800 dollar machine that is "production quality".

I'm a bit confused here. The machine appears to be as solid as one can expect for the size and money. What lurking demons am I likely to discover if I did buy this thing, add some electronics and a spindle??
I know very little of CNC and I have to start with something.
Again, I have a budget of about 1600 bucks. Can I even get a decent machine for that price?
Last edit: 01 Aug 2011 19:14 by garym1957.

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01 Aug 2011 19:10 #12099 by btvpimill
Heres my %10 cents:

They are very kind to give the overall machine and table size, but what are the travels? I would take a guess and say about 3" less in all directions. The Z is NOT very much. 2-3" I would guess.

As for the .002 resolution - to me that just means 1 step = .002", althouth that seems pretty big for a ball screw. Now if they intend to say the repeatable size is .002, thats not bad, but it prolly means that comes from play in the shaft/bearings and the fit of the ball nut to the ROLLED ball screw. Nothing wrong with rolled screws, just don't expect ground screw tolorence from it. .0005 is prolly as good as it gets.

Should any of that have any influence over your decision? Most likely not. For light work you will never know the difference. Now if you get into bigger stuff (like a 3/8 - 1/2" mill hoging out a gutiar) you may see and hear it.

The show stopper for me is the vertical supports. They will flex pretty good ecspecially when making a y cut. Again only when making bigger cuts. You could easily add some stiffners so the plates have a perpendicular section to them, but for the price they want that would make me pretty mad.

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01 Aug 2011 19:19 #12100 by garym1957
Ahh.. rolled vs ground. I get it. I've seen them make twist drills by literally twisting some red hot flat stock.

I dont see myself hogging out a guitar. Maybe whittling away for hours though... Doesn't that work with smaller machines?

Crap, I was thinking I would order that machine. Now I'm not so sure.
Picking my wife was easier.

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01 Aug 2011 20:31 #12102 by btvpimill
It will prolly whittle away for hours, without too much trouble. You will learn a lot from it, both good and bad. So if the travels are enough - why not. There will always be a better machine, at the end of the day you have to go with what you can get.

Have you looked at the fireball v90 I think it is? I know someone from another forum that has one and he seems pretty happy with it. Mind you I think he only cuts PCB's with it. Not trying to fill you with options, that just came to mind is all. Just went and looked at the fireball, It may be a little small for your needs.

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01 Aug 2011 21:36 #12105 by BigJohnT
garym1957 wrote:

I'm not sure what to expect. I like the numbers but I'm not sure what that equates to in real life. .002" is pretty tight if the advertising is for real.


If you had another 0 in there it would be pretty tight like 0.0002"... advertising is just that and I read all of it with a grain of salt.

John

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01 Aug 2011 21:44 #12106 by andypugh
garym1957 wrote:

He did say the linear bearings were fully supported.

That sounds like a plus.

The 16mm ball screws are 5TPI which I'm not sure that better than a 1/2 10TPI which people seem to like.

16mm nuts will be a lot stiffer than 12.7mm nuts.

We had a bit of a language issue. I speak English and he speaks something else.

Unfortunately it is the same here, we all speak CNC/Linux Geek :-)

I'm still unsure if that machine can take a router attachment or if it can only work with an expensive spindle. (I do plan on buying a real spindle down the road).

I can tell you are new to all this :-) Anything can be anything in this game. Hardware not up to scratch? Make new parts. Software not up to scratch? Edit and re-compile.
It looks fairly easy to unbolt the top mounting on that router, then you can attach a normal handheld to the lower plate. It won't be as stiff, but it will work. The Bosch Colt is apparently popular for this sort of application (SO I have read, I am pretty sure they don't even sell it in the UK, where I am)

I genuinely can't tell if the gentleman was truly worried about me making the wrong purchase or if he is a diabolical genius at the upsell. He has a nice 4800 dollar machine that is "production quality".

How many guitars do you want to make? If you are making to sell, then factor in the prospect of a better machine paying for itself faster. If it is really a hobby undertaking, where taking an hour to make a part rather than 10 minutes is irrelevant then get the hobby one.
One thing about hobby CNC, you can leave it running and watch TV, read a book, walk the dog….

I'm a bit confused here. The machine appears to be as solid as one can expect for the size and money. What lurking demons am I likely to discover if I did buy this thing, add some electronics and a spindle??

The problems that you could find is that the machine is not strong enough to cut fast enough to avoid burning the wood. Or it might flex, find a resonance and break bits.
Or it could be absolutely fine.

I know very little of CNC and I have to start with something.
Again, I have a budget of about 1600 bucks. Can I even get a decent machine for that price?

It's the bottom end of the market for an assembled, new, machine.
Have you considered buying a used machine? This one is in the wrong country (I assume) but show the sort of thing you might find. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/routout-cnc-z90sp-rou...erspex-/220822738256

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01 Aug 2011 21:56 #12107 by BigJohnT
garym1957 wrote:

Ahh.. rolled vs ground. I get it. I've seen them make twist drills by literally twisting some red hot flat stock.

I dont see myself hogging out a guitar. Maybe whittling away for hours though... Doesn't that work with smaller machines?

Crap, I was thinking I would order that machine. Now I'm not so sure.
Picking my wife was easier.


I would find out what the travels are, and when dimensions are "about..." they might come from several sources. Ask for a few customer contacts if possible. Post on a commercial forum like the zone to see if you can connect with someone that already owns one. Make sure the XYZ travels are enough to make the parts you want and don't forget some room for tools.

www.cnczone.com/forums/keling_products/

What you might expect is flexing at the bit and that depends on your side loads you impose. Cutting wood does take a fairly fast feed to keep from burning the wood from friction heat build up. It may or may not have the power. I do like the t-slot bed, might make it easy to jig up. And like I said before it does have ball screws... maybe not the best but tons better than acme screws for milling.

If it was me I'd make one using good ball screws, linear rails and if steppers use Automation Direct steppers and Gecko drives with Antek power supply. I assume you don't have access to a machine shop to make the few parts needed and there seems to be a state between us so dropping by my shop and making parts might not be a good option. You would be welcome to use my shop if you lived closer...

John

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02 Aug 2011 00:21 #12111 by garym1957
I have a nice table saw, a usable drill press and what passes for a band saw. So I suppose I could go the home-built route using umhw or MDO or something. I have a friend who owns a CNC lathe and has a few machine tools around. He's looking to build a router table. I was hoping to just buy one.

If I do build my own I'll keep a build log for posterity.

Ya know. I was moved to grab some heat treated bed rails outta my neighbor's trash. Very stiff... i wonder id I coulg have that ground into.... uggh

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