Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
16 Nov 2023 15:46 #285626
by PCW
Replied by PCW on topic Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
A 7I95T +7I83 is another possibility
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17 Nov 2023 23:57 #285790
by zerobalance
Replied by zerobalance on topic Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
Ok, I need to spend a lot more time getting familiar with the ins and outs of the mesa boards before I pull the trigger on any of them, Im wrapping my head around them, but it's obviously a good deal of information to process, my notebook is already getting full. My servo amps are Glentek 7377-1, working my way through google currently trying to find a manual for them. The manual I have appears to be for an AC 4020 machine, a lot of the diagrams aren't jiving for DC stuff.
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18 Nov 2023 20:43 #285855
by zerobalance
Replied by zerobalance on topic Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
Alright, after reading everything I can get my hands on....
First, I need to swap my resolvers to encoders, including on the Z, as my machine had rigid tapping.
Second, would it be better to swap my Glentek servo amps to something more modern? My concern is they are either hard to find, or priced at $900 if one decides to fail, plus it will be easier to pick a breakout board for a modern drive like a gecko. Everything in this machine looks brand new, but it is 23 years old...
If I keep the oem servo amps, I think the move is to go 7i95t, which can does not require a FBGA as it is ethernet(?) I'm not sure how the suggested 7i83 comes into play, the 7i95T will run the servo amps and vfd correct? I may need a daughterboard to run some of the other functions, I haven't plotted out all the outputs required for lube pump, tool change, coolant, etc.
The other thing I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around is why some mesa boards are labeled sinking or sourcing. I understand the difference, and that my amps are sinking, but only a few boards are labeled as such.
First, I need to swap my resolvers to encoders, including on the Z, as my machine had rigid tapping.
Second, would it be better to swap my Glentek servo amps to something more modern? My concern is they are either hard to find, or priced at $900 if one decides to fail, plus it will be easier to pick a breakout board for a modern drive like a gecko. Everything in this machine looks brand new, but it is 23 years old...
If I keep the oem servo amps, I think the move is to go 7i95t, which can does not require a FBGA as it is ethernet(?) I'm not sure how the suggested 7i83 comes into play, the 7i95T will run the servo amps and vfd correct? I may need a daughterboard to run some of the other functions, I haven't plotted out all the outputs required for lube pump, tool change, coolant, etc.
The other thing I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around is why some mesa boards are labeled sinking or sourcing. I understand the difference, and that my amps are sinking, but only a few boards are labeled as such.
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18 Nov 2023 22:30 #285861
by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
Well, you did a lot of reading, utmost respect, but now you find yourself in the positions of knowing fragments of stuff, so to keep from making any hiccups just keep asking.
Find info on the resolvers, Mesa has also something for most of them.
If the servo amps still work, use them, till the first one dies, then change.
Old servo amps are most probably analog controlled, most new ones can do analog and step/dir, most old ones are velocity mode meaning they have a tacho that is also wired to the drives, new ones do not need a tahco.
Mesa 7i95T is a step/dir control mode device, with it's own FPGA on board, so it can not be used with older analog drives, hence the need for 7i83, and connects to PC through Ethernet.
See where this is heading?
That combo provides analog and step/dir control, so you can use it with existing drives and analog control wired to 7i83 till one fails, then get 3 new drives for the price of an old one, and wire the new ones to 7i95T OR to 7i83 depending on what you choose as control type.
Sinking and sourcing outputs in general:
Sinking outputs = the outputs go low to 0V or ground when active
Sourcing outputs = the outputs send +V when active
+V is 5V or 12V or 24V or whatever the board is supplied with minus a small drop of usually 0.6V
Find info on the resolvers, Mesa has also something for most of them.
If the servo amps still work, use them, till the first one dies, then change.
Old servo amps are most probably analog controlled, most new ones can do analog and step/dir, most old ones are velocity mode meaning they have a tacho that is also wired to the drives, new ones do not need a tahco.
Mesa 7i95T is a step/dir control mode device, with it's own FPGA on board, so it can not be used with older analog drives, hence the need for 7i83, and connects to PC through Ethernet.
See where this is heading?
That combo provides analog and step/dir control, so you can use it with existing drives and analog control wired to 7i83 till one fails, then get 3 new drives for the price of an old one, and wire the new ones to 7i95T OR to 7i83 depending on what you choose as control type.
Sinking and sourcing outputs in general:
Sinking outputs = the outputs go low to 0V or ground when active
Sourcing outputs = the outputs send +V when active
+V is 5V or 12V or 24V or whatever the board is supplied with minus a small drop of usually 0.6V
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18 Nov 2023 23:25 - 18 Nov 2023 23:29 #285869
by zerobalance
Replied by zerobalance on topic Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
From the Fadal manual concerning resolvers, I'm not against converting to encoders if needed:
"The resolver has two input signals generated by the Clock Board, they are called SIN and COS and are 10 VAC peak to peak (about 3.54 VAC on a meter). The resolver uses these two to generate a third signal, Resolver signal is 5 VAC peak to peak (about 1.77 VAC on a meter)."
The drives are analog, they have obviously power in from a bridge rectifier to get DC, signal to the servo, signal from the card board, and two wires to the main relay board, which I assume are an estop or wake up command. I haven't managed to locate the diagram for the DC servo section of that yet.
The step vs analog notation was painfully obvious, not sure how I overlooked that, thanks for the clarification.
So the best option seems to be 7i95T, mated to a 7i83 as you suggested. 6 output might be enough, but I bet I will have to add a daughter board to control everything I need.
There is one 7i77 showing available which is ideal since MSRdiesel has literally the exact machine and that is what he used, but it is sourcing rather than sinking.
"The resolver has two input signals generated by the Clock Board, they are called SIN and COS and are 10 VAC peak to peak (about 3.54 VAC on a meter). The resolver uses these two to generate a third signal, Resolver signal is 5 VAC peak to peak (about 1.77 VAC on a meter)."
The drives are analog, they have obviously power in from a bridge rectifier to get DC, signal to the servo, signal from the card board, and two wires to the main relay board, which I assume are an estop or wake up command. I haven't managed to locate the diagram for the DC servo section of that yet.
The step vs analog notation was painfully obvious, not sure how I overlooked that, thanks for the clarification.
So the best option seems to be 7i95T, mated to a 7i83 as you suggested. 6 output might be enough, but I bet I will have to add a daughter board to control everything I need.
There is one 7i77 showing available which is ideal since MSRdiesel has literally the exact machine and that is what he used, but it is sourcing rather than sinking.
Last edit: 18 Nov 2023 23:29 by zerobalance.
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19 Nov 2023 00:01 #285871
by tommylight
You can add as many inputs and outputs as you like, or any combination of them, see 7i70, 7i71, 7i72 and 7i84, very easy to wire and no programing, except editing the hal file to add the pins.
7i95 has 2 of SSerial on board, if i am not mistaken been a year that i installed it and it is in use at a clients shop, not sure if 7i95T has also 2, leme check... yup it does, so you can have 7i83 and 7i84 (using a single LAN cable cut in half for both ) adding another 32 inputs and 16 outputs for not much money.
Upfront, sorry about the money thing, but any Mesa card i have bough ( a lot) cost me at least twice the listed price due to where i live, and i gladly pay it, just the reliability makes me sleep good at night, having the best support on earth is just a bonus.
Replied by tommylight on topic Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
I did not, PCW did suggest that combo, i did the 7i96S with 7i85 and 7i83, so they do the same thing and easier to use/wire, the PCW's combo, that is.So the best option seems to be 7i95T, mated to a 7i83 as you suggested. 6 output might be enough, but I bet I will have to add a daughter board to control everything I need.
You can add as many inputs and outputs as you like, or any combination of them, see 7i70, 7i71, 7i72 and 7i84, very easy to wire and no programing, except editing the hal file to add the pins.
7i95 has 2 of SSerial on board, if i am not mistaken been a year that i installed it and it is in use at a clients shop, not sure if 7i95T has also 2, leme check... yup it does, so you can have 7i83 and 7i84 (using a single LAN cable cut in half for both ) adding another 32 inputs and 16 outputs for not much money.
Upfront, sorry about the money thing, but any Mesa card i have bough ( a lot) cost me at least twice the listed price due to where i live, and i gladly pay it, just the reliability makes me sleep good at night, having the best support on earth is just a bonus.
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20 Nov 2023 23:32 #286117
by zerobalance
Replied by zerobalance on topic Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
Ok, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the 7i95t / 7i83 combo. With that out of the way, I can get to pulling my cabinet apart and setting the PC and UI up, as well as figuring out encoders for the servos.
Thank you for all the advice
Thank you for all the advice
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15 Jun 2024 20:40 #303078
by Emco2342
Replied by Emco2342 on topic Retrofitting Fadal VMC15-XT w/Mesa
How is the retrofit going?
Curious to hear about your adventure
Curious to hear about your adventure
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