high acceleration stepper motor selection?? (3D printer)

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24 Jul 2022 17:35 #248177 by robertspark
I'm in need of some guidance, I am looking at trying to improve my 3 d printer acceleration by changing the nema17 steppers to some higher current steppers..... any suggestions what I should look for?

i.e. High or Low Inductance?

High inductance tends to be high torque...... but this is a 3 d printer application so...... should I be looking for high current and low(er) inductance if comparing stepper motors?

(I run a modified Creality CR10S (300x300x400H frame using v-groove 2020/2040 rail profile)
The stepper motors seem to be 800mA..... some sources say 1000mA (1A)
I was more trying to get something with a proper data sheet.

The drives are TMC2209 (up to 2A rated).

The steppers run very hot (and they are within an enclosure and I run a heated bed (750W) and am considering adding a chamber heater 400W so they are running in a very warm environment and obviously run for hours at a time.

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24 Jul 2022 18:17 #248185 by tommylight
Is that a V2?
I have one of those, never had any issue with it. I did make it silent though to the point that i can sleep in the same room! :)
Low Inductance for high speed printing, probably high inductance for normal speeds, or best solution, something in the middle.
Not sure why you would change the original ones as they are quite good, i have one of those overdriven for nearly a year, it gets hot so much that when touching it it feels like burning the skin out of the fingers, never even bothered to check the temp.
If you really want to improve acceleration on CR-10S, get a nema 17 but longer, and you only need to change one, for the Y axis.
Did you test what it can do as is?
If not, give it a try, you will be surprised.

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24 Jul 2022 18:25 #248187 by tommylight
Forgot, did you change the bed or the bed heater?
CR-10 MAX the new version has a 750W bed, CR-10S has a 350W one.
CR-10 MAX is a 450X450X470mm print volume.

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24 Jul 2022 18:32 #248188 by spumco
TLDR: tommy's right - get some longer 17's and bump the current if needed if it's losing steps.  My Ender-5 has some Amazon Nema17's that are about double length of the OEM ones and the 2209's are fine and the motors aren't smoking.

Here's a link to LDO motors - based on internet jabber they're the new hotness.
ldomotors.com/products/show/42mm-hybrid-stepper-series

Higher inductance will require higher voltage to achieve the same RPM as a lower-inductance motor.
Assuming you're running a 24v system and the 2209's max out at 28V (according to the datasheet), so you've got no headroom without changing the drivers.

If you want to go down the rabbit-hole, TMC5160's can take 60v.  All you need is a new power supply, high-voltage main board, and 5160's.
 
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24 Jul 2022 19:07 #248191 by robertspark
Thanks Gents,

Yup these steppers are running ouch hot!

It's an old CR10S 300x300x400, with dual z drives (8mm lead screws).

I've fiddled a LOT with it....
Now direct drive, dual gear (latest thing + new hotend)
E3D Revo CR hotend (0.6 nozzle) > 300degC
BL touch
BTT SKR 1.4 Turbo board
TMC2209 drives in all slots..... I was going to put a dual extruder for PVA support, but given up (me an bowden tubes dont like each other!)
BTT 3.5TFT (creality replacement) tocuhscreen
750W (230V) bed heater
24V SMPS.
creality CR10 V2 coated / black bed (sticks very well with PET-G {which is all I do really .... want to try ASA at some point}

><><><><> to be fair...... I've not used it for a long while...... and have just got it on a stand neatly in my garage, new lighting in the enclosure (just printing some clips for the LED strip lights)... (trying to clear space hahaha ! rofl!) got to start somewhere!

So I >>>>> updated the firmware >>>> hence have been trying to get it all going again and get it reliable etc (I've got a backlog of stuff waiting to print that I've designed.

Hence I'm not trying to tweak things and I was thinking about upgrading the X and Y steppers. Need to run some more speed and acceleration tests to see where it craps out. (I did try a plasma setting on the acceleration and it did not like me {0.3g}..... it had been running 500mm/s.
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24 Jul 2022 22:31 #248196 by tommylight
ASA is not what it is trumped up to be, layers like to detach soo... but it is UV resistant it seems.
HIPS is much better, i can not figure out why no one uses it, it is the same hassle as ABS and ASA but it does not delayer as those do.
I also print a lot of PETG, always on a modified Ender 5 Plus, corexy, titan direct extruder, volcano nozzle, 0.9 degree stepper motors, BL touch and the rest is stock, so i print at 265C and at 80-160mm/s with 5000mm/s/s acc, prints come out looking like candy, no delayering, removing supports almost always end up in a broken part, yes parts break like injection molded parts, not at layer lines. Using Klipper with Mainsail.
This one craps out at over 300mm/s and 15000mm/s/s, it will run happily at 300mm/s and 7000mm/s/s.
Does not like printing PETG slowly, anything under 50mm/s will sputter and spew!

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30 Jul 2022 22:26 #248698 by andypugh

Yup these steppers are running ouch hot!
 

Steppers are allowed to be hot. Safe working temperature is much hotter than you can safely touch. 80C at least, and I just found a web page from Parker (who make steppers) saying 110C. 



 

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31 Jul 2022 11:38 #248721 by rodw
The main thing with heat is that the temperature does not melt the insulation.
In this NEMA 17 example you willl note it is insulation Class B (130 deg C), Thats the absolute maximum allowable number..
www.moonsindustries.com/p/am-series-stan...n-000004611110011162
So Andy's 110 deg sounds a reasonable safety margin. 
It is possible to calculate what the temperature rise over ambient is for a given stepper design.
Don't ask me how, I just use an engineer's spreadsheet I was given access to :)

However, what was apparent is that when the motor is carefully matched to the design, the temperature rise is quite low.
One of my designs has a rise of 39 deg C (over ambient) Allowing for an ambient of 35 deg here in .au, that becomes 74 deg C

This is where the Lam Drivers boost feature come in as the motor is only working hard and hot when accelerating and decellerating which is only a very small percentage of the work cycle. In that same design, the power requirements  (in Watts) is only about 18.5% of total at constant velocity. So the Lam could happilly reduce the current (amps) to 25-30% without loss of steps when at constant velocity. This lets the motor cool which in turn allows the motor to be pushed harder without loss of steps! 5 m/s/s accelleration is quite feasible all day every day with this feature.

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31 Jul 2022 16:24 - 01 Aug 2022 15:17 #248739 by robertspark
thanks guys

remember this is a cheap 3d printer
I'm not going to spend 200-300  $185 USD + shipping + duty & taxes on a single axis drive.... it ain't going to improve the print quality that much
www.paralanstore.net/lam-technologies/st...stepper-motor-driver

nice drives though:
www.paralanstore.net/lam-technologies/st...irection-ds10-series
just way out of my price range as a hobby user.

also the stepper motors are in a heated enclosure..... well at the moment it's not really heated on purpose but it is heated by the heated bed and extruder (less so) and it is fully enclosed for many hours. I am planning to heat the enclosure on purpose soon.

I've got another set of steppers to play with too
Last edit: 01 Aug 2022 15:17 by robertspark.

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