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Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
- Alexander470815
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4 years 10 months ago #229501
by Alexander470815
Replied by Alexander470815 on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
Well I was one of them saying that this does not work.
The line reactor is made to improve the power factor of the drive, it reduces the pulse current pulled from the mains.
Additional stress for the motor windings comes from two factors.
-higher voltage (with long cables much higher than the DC bus voltage >1000V at a 400V VFD )
-super fast voltage rise and fall times (highest with short cables)
Basically you want to remove these high frequency parts from the output waveform.
For a working filter just a inductor wont cut it.
RC, LR filters have super high losses and are only good for signal purposes.
So we are down to a LC Filter as a low pass to only let through the power for the motor and not this PWM rubbish.
These things are called output filters and are available from many manufacturers.
I have seen them from Siemens, SEW, Lenze, Danfoss and others too.
They are all connected between the drive and the motor.
To make yourself a picture I can recommend this document.
files.danfoss.com/download/Drives/doc_MG90N502.pdf
Or in German:
files.danfoss.com/download/Drives/doc_MG90N503.pdf
On Page 13 and 15 you can see the filters compared.
A dU/dT Filter is basically just a weaker version of a sine wave filter.
With this you can truly get a sinusoidal voltage for the motor.
This will help to not fry the windings of the motor.
The line reactor is made to improve the power factor of the drive, it reduces the pulse current pulled from the mains.
Additional stress for the motor windings comes from two factors.
-higher voltage (with long cables much higher than the DC bus voltage >1000V at a 400V VFD )
-super fast voltage rise and fall times (highest with short cables)
Basically you want to remove these high frequency parts from the output waveform.
For a working filter just a inductor wont cut it.
RC, LR filters have super high losses and are only good for signal purposes.
So we are down to a LC Filter as a low pass to only let through the power for the motor and not this PWM rubbish.
These things are called output filters and are available from many manufacturers.
I have seen them from Siemens, SEW, Lenze, Danfoss and others too.
They are all connected between the drive and the motor.
To make yourself a picture I can recommend this document.
files.danfoss.com/download/Drives/doc_MG90N502.pdf
Or in German:
files.danfoss.com/download/Drives/doc_MG90N503.pdf
On Page 13 and 15 you can see the filters compared.
A dU/dT Filter is basically just a weaker version of a sine wave filter.
With this you can truly get a sinusoidal voltage for the motor.
This will help to not fry the windings of the motor.
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4 years 10 months ago #229523
by spumco
Replied by spumco on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
Mark,
I don't have a youtube account so I can't reply to comments there.
Line/load reactors are the same thing*, and contrary to some of the YT comments they aren't transformers. They also aren't the same thing as input or output side EMI/RFI filters.
Rather than taking my word for it, please feel free to peruse a number of 'professional' discussions of load reactors - including Lenze.
-Ralph
trimantec.com/blogs/t/why-use-line-reactor
ctmmagnetics.com/what-are-lineload-reactors/
www.galco.com/circuit/reacsolu.htm
* - same device, but called 'line' when installed between VFD and incoming line voltage and 'load' or 'output' between VFD and motor
I don't have a youtube account so I can't reply to comments there.
Line/load reactors are the same thing*, and contrary to some of the YT comments they aren't transformers. They also aren't the same thing as input or output side EMI/RFI filters.
Rather than taking my word for it, please feel free to peruse a number of 'professional' discussions of load reactors - including Lenze.
-Ralph
trimantec.com/blogs/t/why-use-line-reactor
ctmmagnetics.com/what-are-lineload-reactors/
www.galco.com/circuit/reacsolu.htm
* - same device, but called 'line' when installed between VFD and incoming line voltage and 'load' or 'output' between VFD and motor
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- Alexander470815
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4 years 10 months ago #229541
by Alexander470815
Replied by Alexander470815 on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
Line and load reactor are quite similar.
But a load reactor will do very little to keep away those voltage spikes and high voltage rise times from the motor insulation.
When using a Motor with unknown insulation status it is best to use at least a dv/dt (dU/dt) Filter or even better a sine wave filter.
The last of them will give the motor a truly sinusoidal voltage.
dv/dt and sine wave filters are more than just a reactor.
They are LC filters, they are even mentioned in your first link.
I suggest you read the output filter design guide from danfoss that I posted a link to.
But a load reactor will do very little to keep away those voltage spikes and high voltage rise times from the motor insulation.
When using a Motor with unknown insulation status it is best to use at least a dv/dt (dU/dt) Filter or even better a sine wave filter.
The last of them will give the motor a truly sinusoidal voltage.
dv/dt and sine wave filters are more than just a reactor.
They are LC filters, they are even mentioned in your first link.
I suggest you read the output filter design guide from danfoss that I posted a link to.
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4 years 9 months ago #230536
by RotarySMP
Replied by RotarySMP on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
I didn't get much done over the holidays...
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4 years 9 months ago #231245
by RotarySMP
Replied by RotarySMP on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
After teasing it a few times, this week I really did make electrical installation progress.
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4 years 9 months ago #231293
by arvidb
Replied by arvidb on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
For drawing wiring diagrams,
QElectroTech
works very nicely! It lets you e.g. place contactor coils and contacts in different places/pages and then keeps track of where they are for you.
Example diagram:
Example diagram:
Attachment not found
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4 years 9 months ago #231312
by RotarySMP
Replied by RotarySMP on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
Thanks. That has got to be better than doing it in Visio (Mini-lathe) or PDF writer (Changing the Maho schematics one line at a time.
I'll give that a try.
Mark
I'll give that a try.
Mark
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4 years 9 months ago #231729
by spumco
Replied by spumco on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
I'll have to check out QElectro Tech. Looks nice.
TinyCAD is another useful tool. Not great for ladder diagrams, but excellent for color-coded schematics. Bit of a steep learning curve designing your own symbols but once you figure it out it's easy to cook up specialized components like PLC's, drives and sensors.
sourceforge.net/projects/tinycad/
TinyCAD is another useful tool. Not great for ladder diagrams, but excellent for color-coded schematics. Bit of a steep learning curve designing your own symbols but once you figure it out it's easy to cook up specialized components like PLC's, drives and sensors.
sourceforge.net/projects/tinycad/
Attachment not found
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4 years 9 months ago #231887
by RotarySMP
Replied by RotarySMP on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
Nice schematic.
I think QET is really good. Probably capable of 10x what I need, but that way you can place and snap components on the grid and auto connect then is really fast to use.
Mark
I think QET is really good. Probably capable of 10x what I need, but that way you can place and snap components on the grid and auto connect then is really fast to use.
Mark
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4 years 9 months ago #232001
by RotarySMP
Replied by RotarySMP on topic Schaublin 125-CNC retrofit.
Thanks to Arvidb for the idea of this week video...
...pretty random, but I hope regular viewers can follow it.
...pretty random, but I hope regular viewers can follow it.
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