Electrically preloaded Dual motor drive for R&P

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28 May 2014 03:05 #47418 by raadu
Hi all,

i'm researching building a 4' x 8' cnc router for a woodshop.


I was wondering if LinuxCNC has the capability to drive 2 stepper motors per side of X axis ( 2 pinions per rack for reduced backlash, electrically preloaded ).




That would be 4 motors for the X axis.

Motor A would drive in one direction while motor B would have less torque (dragging) to keep the pinion engaged.

When switching direction, the motors would switch also to B driving and A preloading.





Thanks,
Radu

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28 May 2014 06:43 #47423 by andypugh

I was wondering if LinuxCNC has the capability to drive 2 stepper motors per side of X axis ( 2 pinions per rack for reduced backlash, electrically preloaded ).


It isn't something built-in, and I am not sure that it would work all that well.

If I was building a big machine I think I would try copying the Bell-Everman "Servobelt" arrangement. Or I might try double helical rack-and-pinion displaced sideways to take up backlash.

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28 May 2014 09:07 - 28 May 2014 09:16 #47432 by Todd Zuercher
I agree with Andy. A much simpler arrangement would be to have one motor driving both pinions with a belt.
Maybe something a little like this.

When you tension the belt with the motor pulley it would remove the backlash and apply opposing force to the two pinions. The idler just takes up any slack. The motor tensioning might need to be dynamic if your amount of backlash varies too much across your range of motion.
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Last edit: 28 May 2014 09:16 by Todd Zuercher.

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28 May 2014 11:46 - 09 Dec 2014 10:29 #47437 by guyprotection
A much simpler arrangement would be to have one motor driving both pinions with a belt.
Last edit: 09 Dec 2014 10:29 by guyprotection.

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28 May 2014 16:05 #47442 by andypugh
It is possibly worth mentioning that I think I have heard of systems that use opposed motors to achieve backlash compensation.

I think it would be done by asymmetric PID controllers, with the asymmetry switching depending on direction of motion.
The problem is likely to be that the direction that the cutting force acts is not necessarily the direction in which the axis is moving. This is the problem with software backlash comensation, and the dual-motor arrangement is likely to suffer the same problem.

With servo control you might be able to have a small bias current to take up the slack, then a slow I-term in a PID controller to adapt to the encoder-counts offset between the pinions. Any change in counts-offset could be seen as a "backlash rattle" and counteracted.

I can't see a workable way to do it open-loop with stepper motors, though.

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28 May 2014 19:46 #47456 by Todd Zuercher
What if the steppers were set up like a unipolar stepper, with motor A stepping in one direction and motor B stepping in the other. This still dosn't help with the case when cutting forces are pulling you.

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28 May 2014 20:05 #47458 by Todd Zuercher
I think the best way this would work with 2 motors would be with servos running in torque mode. You might only need one encoder and 1 PID for both motors. If a fixed offset between the 2 motors torque command is enough to take up the lash. The idea being that there would be a constant opposing force between the 2 motors no matter how hard either one pulls in one direction. But I don't know if the relationship of torque output and command input would be linear enough for the 2 motors to work together like this.

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29 May 2014 09:54 #47496 by raadu
Thanks for all the replies.

I'm trying to stay away from belts for now...


What if the steppers were set up like a unipolar stepper, with motor A stepping in one direction and motor B stepping in the other. This still dosn't help with the case when cutting forces are pulling you.


This sounds interesting!

What i would like to do is use inexpensive planetary assemblies (e.g. from power tools ) which, most likely are not high precision.

If the motors take turns to drive and the teeth of the R&P are pre-engaged for the direction change, wouldn't this be the same as one motor driving both ways with a high precision R&P?

If the motors are strong enough would the cutting force still be an issue?


Thanks again,
Radu

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29 May 2014 16:24 #47509 by andypugh

I'm trying to stay away from belts for now.

Why? Belts are excellent.

If the motors take turns to drive and the teeth of the R&P are pre-engaged for the direction change, wouldn't this be the same as one motor driving both ways with a high precision R&P?


The issue here is that the cutting force direction and the axis movement direction are not the same thing, and each can reverse without the other reversing. The controller only knows the motion direction.

This is why our suggestions all tend to come back to closed-loop systems where the motor encoders can be used to deduce cutting force direction.

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30 May 2014 18:30 #47544 by Todd Zuercher
The double mono directional stepper (what else would you call half a unipolar stepper) setup might possibly work adequately in velocity mode with the addition of linear encoders. But it is adding what is probably needless complexity (just use a belt and one motor)

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