Ideal hardware for a high precision 5/6 axis CNC machine
- j.wilson
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02 Feb 2022 13:26 #233796
by j.wilson
Ideal hardware for a high precision 5/6 axis CNC machine was created by j.wilson
Greetings everyone,
After a considerable amount of research I finally managed to narrow my search for the best controller options down to LinuxCNC as the best option for building a high precision, high speed CNC machine.
Ideally what I would like to achieve is a stellar 5/6 axis CNC machine capable of rivalling industry giants and figured this community was my best bet to move forward.
I’ve narrowed my driver and servo to Yaskawa Sigma 7 but still wondering what the best communication protocol would be, Ethercat options or I actually found a guy selling a PCI card that should enable interfacing with Mechatrolink ii.
Now for the controller side of things what I need to figure out:
1. How to ensure that the motor is able to run with no restriction, up to approx 10,000 rpm with 32 bit encoder.
2. Is motor tuning possible from Linux CNC to compensate when the machine had load, etc…
3. What are smoothening features possible?
4. Variable Frequency Drive?
5. Can I add things like analog feedback from temperature sensors, etc?
6. How does one go about simultaneous 5/6 axis motor control?
I’m literally looking for any and all the advice and help that anyone can offer.
Please don’t hesitate to point out anything that I might have articulated wrongly or I sufficiently, all feedback is welcome.
Thanks in advance guys,
Jonathan
After a considerable amount of research I finally managed to narrow my search for the best controller options down to LinuxCNC as the best option for building a high precision, high speed CNC machine.
Ideally what I would like to achieve is a stellar 5/6 axis CNC machine capable of rivalling industry giants and figured this community was my best bet to move forward.
I’ve narrowed my driver and servo to Yaskawa Sigma 7 but still wondering what the best communication protocol would be, Ethercat options or I actually found a guy selling a PCI card that should enable interfacing with Mechatrolink ii.
Now for the controller side of things what I need to figure out:
1. How to ensure that the motor is able to run with no restriction, up to approx 10,000 rpm with 32 bit encoder.
2. Is motor tuning possible from Linux CNC to compensate when the machine had load, etc…
3. What are smoothening features possible?
4. Variable Frequency Drive?
5. Can I add things like analog feedback from temperature sensors, etc?
6. How does one go about simultaneous 5/6 axis motor control?
I’m literally looking for any and all the advice and help that anyone can offer.
Please don’t hesitate to point out anything that I might have articulated wrongly or I sufficiently, all feedback is welcome.
Thanks in advance guys,
Jonathan
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- Aciera
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02 Feb 2022 18:32 - 02 Feb 2022 18:52 #233821
by Aciera
In my opinion points 1,2 and 3 should be taken care of by the servo controllers. If you use a digital interface all Linuxcnc has to do is send the positional command.
4. VFDs, what about it? Lots of people use one for their spindle using PWM or analog.
5. Analog feedback is possible, interfaces may depend on your choice of servo interface. Although temperature sensors don't need real time, so Modbus or Profibus could be used.
6. Requires a suitable CAM solution and possibly a custom kinematic module in linuxcnc to fit your machine. So the CAM either outputs gcode that has already been calculated to fit your machine kinematics or it outputs TCP gcode that is then run through your custom kinematic model in LinuxCNC. Either way you will need a postprocessor that fits your CAM system to get what you want.
Just as general note: As can be seen in various videos on the internet, LinuxCNC is used to control a variety of non-trivial kinematic machines. I use it to run a 6 axis industrial robot. However you should be aware that there are limitations inherent in the way LinuxCNC handles non-trivial kinematics. The motion planner will fall back to a one line look ahead for anything other than 3-axis linear. Which can be problematic if the gcode contains a lot of short segments. The motion planner also has no notion of the non-trivial kinematic model since that model is added after the planning has been done. Which means it will not foresee soft limit violations prior to running the code. So all code should really be run in a simulation first.
Another thing to note is that there are few users who will be able to advise on how to setup and run such a machine. You'll be very much off the beaten path and actually on the limits of what LinuxCNC can do.
Replied by Aciera on topic Ideal hardware for a high precision 5/6 axis CNC machine
Ideally what I would like to achieve is a stellar 5/6 axis CNC machine capable of rivalling industry giants
HA! Don't we all want that?
In my opinion points 1,2 and 3 should be taken care of by the servo controllers. If you use a digital interface all Linuxcnc has to do is send the positional command.
4. VFDs, what about it? Lots of people use one for their spindle using PWM or analog.
5. Analog feedback is possible, interfaces may depend on your choice of servo interface. Although temperature sensors don't need real time, so Modbus or Profibus could be used.
6. Requires a suitable CAM solution and possibly a custom kinematic module in linuxcnc to fit your machine. So the CAM either outputs gcode that has already been calculated to fit your machine kinematics or it outputs TCP gcode that is then run through your custom kinematic model in LinuxCNC. Either way you will need a postprocessor that fits your CAM system to get what you want.
Just as general note: As can be seen in various videos on the internet, LinuxCNC is used to control a variety of non-trivial kinematic machines. I use it to run a 6 axis industrial robot. However you should be aware that there are limitations inherent in the way LinuxCNC handles non-trivial kinematics. The motion planner will fall back to a one line look ahead for anything other than 3-axis linear. Which can be problematic if the gcode contains a lot of short segments. The motion planner also has no notion of the non-trivial kinematic model since that model is added after the planning has been done. Which means it will not foresee soft limit violations prior to running the code. So all code should really be run in a simulation first.
Another thing to note is that there are few users who will be able to advise on how to setup and run such a machine. You'll be very much off the beaten path and actually on the limits of what LinuxCNC can do.
Last edit: 02 Feb 2022 18:52 by Aciera.
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- j.wilson
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03 Feb 2022 19:28 - 03 Feb 2022 19:29 #233902
by j.wilson
Replied by j.wilson on topic Ideal hardware for a high precision 5/6 axis CNC machine
Wow that was a super quick reply.
Thank you so much Aciera.
Thanks for addressing point 1,2 and 3.
4. Well I was curious about how hooking up a VFD with LinuxCNC works.
5. Regarding Modbus and Profibus, do you have any recommendation on which way to go or any tips when identifying hardware and how to integrate it with Linuxcnc?
6. So I think I can handle finding a suitable CAM solution and I found some resources to help me get started with a custom kinematic module. But I will probably start off with generating Gcode that has already been calculated to fit the machine kinematics.
Now comes the most important question of all if Linuxcnc has only a 1 line look ahead this could severely affect machining time among other things if I understand this correctly. How does one begin to rival 5 axis simultaneous cnc industry giants with this limitation then?
Also is there any other things I should start researching or understanding, linuxcnc bottlenecks or maybe lessons form veterans who have walked this path before me?
As always, I’m here to learn so please don’t hold back.
Also thank you so much for replying, it was so nice to see someone take the effort to painfully address everything I asked.
I appreciate your effort and time You gave me the courage to make the purchase for the drives and servos.
/Jonathan
Thank you so much Aciera.
Thanks for addressing point 1,2 and 3.
4. Well I was curious about how hooking up a VFD with LinuxCNC works.
5. Regarding Modbus and Profibus, do you have any recommendation on which way to go or any tips when identifying hardware and how to integrate it with Linuxcnc?
6. So I think I can handle finding a suitable CAM solution and I found some resources to help me get started with a custom kinematic module. But I will probably start off with generating Gcode that has already been calculated to fit the machine kinematics.
Now comes the most important question of all if Linuxcnc has only a 1 line look ahead this could severely affect machining time among other things if I understand this correctly. How does one begin to rival 5 axis simultaneous cnc industry giants with this limitation then?
Also is there any other things I should start researching or understanding, linuxcnc bottlenecks or maybe lessons form veterans who have walked this path before me?
As always, I’m here to learn so please don’t hold back.
Also thank you so much for replying, it was so nice to see someone take the effort to painfully address everything I asked.
I appreciate your effort and time You gave me the courage to make the purchase for the drives and servos.
/Jonathan
Last edit: 03 Feb 2022 19:29 by j.wilson. Reason: Typo
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- Aciera
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04 Feb 2022 09:25 #233960
by Aciera
As for Profibus:
forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configura...-and-profibus#222282
Note that, since this uses python code, it is not suitable for anything requiring hard real time communications.
If you are looking for a professional solution then I would suggest you look at a controller built for that market:
cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/454/.../SIN_WF5_0509_en.pdf
I have no idea what something like that costs but my industrial robot was run by a controller that (10 years ago) cost 40k€. LinuxCNC is free and opensource and while certainly not a robot controller it's the only solution I know of that let's me do anything useful with that robot without having to spend more than 1k€.
As I said, there are users that seem to successfully produce parts on 5-axis machines with simultaneous tool paths but unfortunately feedback has been sporadic at best and none of those users seem to frequent this forum regularly.
But maybe somebody will actually see your thread and voice an opinion.
Replied by Aciera on topic Ideal hardware for a high precision 5/6 axis CNC machine
Modbus is used fairly often to communicate with VFD's although communication speed may be too slow for run/stop and speed commands.5. Regarding Modbus and Profibus, do you have any recommendation on which way to go or any tips when identifying hardware and how to integrate it with Linuxcnc?
As for Profibus:
forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configura...-and-profibus#222282
Note that, since this uses python code, it is not suitable for anything requiring hard real time communications.
How does one begin to rival 5 axis simultaneous cnc industry giants with this limitation then?
If you are looking for a professional solution then I would suggest you look at a controller built for that market:
cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/454/.../SIN_WF5_0509_en.pdf
I have no idea what something like that costs but my industrial robot was run by a controller that (10 years ago) cost 40k€. LinuxCNC is free and opensource and while certainly not a robot controller it's the only solution I know of that let's me do anything useful with that robot without having to spend more than 1k€.
As I said, there are users that seem to successfully produce parts on 5-axis machines with simultaneous tool paths but unfortunately feedback has been sporadic at best and none of those users seem to frequent this forum regularly.
But maybe somebody will actually see your thread and voice an opinion.
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