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Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid)
- JRhode
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23 Feb 2022 19:47 #235642
by JRhode
Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid) was created by JRhode
Hello all.
I'm trying to find out, in broad terms, if it is possible to splice in say a Mesa 7i77 board to read the signals from the existing control (for example, the analog voltage and encoder feedback to the servo drives) to help with getting a baseline to tune servos against. The board would be totally passive at that point, serving as a makeshift DAS.
This came to mind while reading through the Brother conversion thread here: forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/32276...29-adventure?start=0. It appears there was some confusion and predictions of what the native Brother controller was doing. If one could capture the signal for a defined move and compare that to the response and control from Linuxcnc, figured it might aid in tuning. This could be taken a step future to track what the machine is doing (for example, with the tool change cycle) to help setup the HAL.
Has anyone done this before?
Thanks,
Joel
I'm trying to find out, in broad terms, if it is possible to splice in say a Mesa 7i77 board to read the signals from the existing control (for example, the analog voltage and encoder feedback to the servo drives) to help with getting a baseline to tune servos against. The board would be totally passive at that point, serving as a makeshift DAS.
This came to mind while reading through the Brother conversion thread here: forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/32276...29-adventure?start=0. It appears there was some confusion and predictions of what the native Brother controller was doing. If one could capture the signal for a defined move and compare that to the response and control from Linuxcnc, figured it might aid in tuning. This could be taken a step future to track what the machine is doing (for example, with the tool change cycle) to help setup the HAL.
Has anyone done this before?
Thanks,
Joel
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- tommylight
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23 Feb 2022 22:16 #235658
by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid)
You mean using the Mesa 7i77 as an analyzer ?
Of course it can be done, encoders will work just fine, but the analog voltage is a bit tricky, using the 4 inputs that can be set to analog mode with very low resolution and speed, or much better and faster = using a Mesa THCAD10. The latter will also require using an encoder input on the 7i77 for the THCAD, but since there are 6 on it, might be more than enough.
Of course it can be done, encoders will work just fine, but the analog voltage is a bit tricky, using the 4 inputs that can be set to analog mode with very low resolution and speed, or much better and faster = using a Mesa THCAD10. The latter will also require using an encoder input on the 7i77 for the THCAD, but since there are 6 on it, might be more than enough.
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- PCW
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23 Feb 2022 22:20 #235660
by PCW
Replied by PCW on topic Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid)
A 7I87 (6 channel +-10V 12 bit ADC) would be a better choice
for reading analog voltages
for reading analog voltages
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- JRhode
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24 Feb 2022 15:10 #235706
by JRhode
Replied by JRhode on topic Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid)
tommylight/PCW,
Thank you both for the response. Knowing that is possible, is there merit to trying to get a baseline control signal for a given move to help with servo tuning, i.e. adjust parameters in Linuxcnc to match the curve as much as possible (as opposed to or at least in addition to the standard servo tuning process)?
Thank you both for the response. Knowing that is possible, is there merit to trying to get a baseline control signal for a given move to help with servo tuning, i.e. adjust parameters in Linuxcnc to match the curve as much as possible (as opposed to or at least in addition to the standard servo tuning process)?
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- tommylight
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24 Feb 2022 15:43 #235711
by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid)
Now i am not sure what are you trying to do.
If your plan is to monitor the old control and use those values for the new control, chances are it will not work.
At some point the old control will have to be thrown in the bin and new one installed, that will require servo tuning, there is no way around it.
Have you seen this :
forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configura...ning-detailed-how-to
If your plan is to monitor the old control and use those values for the new control, chances are it will not work.
At some point the old control will have to be thrown in the bin and new one installed, that will require servo tuning, there is no way around it.
Have you seen this :
forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configura...ning-detailed-how-to
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- JRhode
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24 Feb 2022 19:42 #235737
by JRhode
Replied by JRhode on topic Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid)
I may be oversimplifying this, my thought is to try to capture what the control signal looked like from the old control for say a given short move on an axis and how it handled steady state. My thought with something like the Brother is there were countless hours put into getting the system tuned.
Then with the new (Linuxcnc) control plugged in, you would try to match this same control signal plot while tuning, vs. just tuning as described in your post you referenced. From the original Brother conversion thread, there were some tuning issues, and it seemed that if one could compare the control signal from the original control to what Linuxcnc was outputting, there may be something to glean from there.
All this is with the same servo motors and amps/drives; I do not have experience doing this, so apologies if this is missing a major part. My thought in the end is that the control signal is the final output from the tuning process, so if the control signal could be matched between the new and old controls the performance and behavior should be similar.
Then with the new (Linuxcnc) control plugged in, you would try to match this same control signal plot while tuning, vs. just tuning as described in your post you referenced. From the original Brother conversion thread, there were some tuning issues, and it seemed that if one could compare the control signal from the original control to what Linuxcnc was outputting, there may be something to glean from there.
All this is with the same servo motors and amps/drives; I do not have experience doing this, so apologies if this is missing a major part. My thought in the end is that the control signal is the final output from the tuning process, so if the control signal could be matched between the new and old controls the performance and behavior should be similar.
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- tommylight
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24 Feb 2022 21:25 #235746
by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid)
You keep mentioning Brother, i recall vaguely it took long and did not work as expected, but ......
There are several of us who do retrofits, personally i have done a dozen or more, never ever failed at tuning them properly.
There were issues sometimes for sure, like a rusty encoder on one side of the gantry took 2 hours to figure out, or bad tacho brushes on a servo motor causing the drive and motor to heat up to the point of drifting out of tuning that took 2 days to figure out.
Getting stuck on a single source of info is never a good idea, read other retrofits, tuning the Hurco with Yaskawa drives took 5 minutes flat for both of the working drives.
There are several of us who do retrofits, personally i have done a dozen or more, never ever failed at tuning them properly.
There were issues sometimes for sure, like a rusty encoder on one side of the gantry took 2 hours to figure out, or bad tacho brushes on a servo motor causing the drive and motor to heat up to the point of drifting out of tuning that took 2 days to figure out.
Getting stuck on a single source of info is never a good idea, read other retrofits, tuning the Hurco with Yaskawa drives took 5 minutes flat for both of the working drives.
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- JRhode
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25 Feb 2022 03:01 #235765
by JRhode
Replied by JRhode on topic Using Halscope To Track Existing Control Signals (Servo Tuning Aid)
tommylight,
Thanks. The reason I'm stuck on the Brother is I'd like to convert a very similar machine, so trying to figure out a way to get ahead of the curve if I go down that route. Your points are well taken and sounds like I may pushing on something that isn't needed, at least not for most applications.
Appreciate the insight.
Thanks,
Joel
Thanks. The reason I'm stuck on the Brother is I'd like to convert a very similar machine, so trying to figure out a way to get ahead of the curve if I go down that route. Your points are well taken and sounds like I may pushing on something that isn't needed, at least not for most applications.
Appreciate the insight.
Thanks,
Joel
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