matsuura mc500v mill - VFD advice for spindle motor 80's yaskawa UAASE-5K)

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17 Jul 2023 16:16 #275659 by tommylight
Almost forgot, 11KW 380V VFD will not do instead of 11KW 200V VFD, the current will be nearly twice lower on the 380V one, so a 15 or 18KW should do, aim for twice the power.
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17 Jul 2023 21:48 #275686 by camb0
RE the Delta thing I had assumed that was a type of VFD design I hadn't come across (I know of the motor wiring) hence the 'down the rabbit hole comment', learning is a huge part of the fun of this project.

Thanks for all the advice re the VFD. I'll try and write a little summary of what I've taken away from it once my work meetings finish up.

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18 Jul 2023 22:20 #275774 by JR1050
The Yaskawa motor is a standard induction motor. Depending on what year it is , it may have been a MT-1, -2 or possibly a -3 drive. The 5kw drive and 7.5 kw are the same drive, they have a different motor “ personality card”, which has different pot settings. Depending on the year of your machine, you may have a separate orient unit. MT-2 and later have an orientation board, it uses a magnetic sensor and amplifier to sense a magnet on the spindle.
I posed the question a while back of how to sense the magnet position a while back using a component in Lcnc. Best case is to use an encoder for final position.
I would be wary of a Chinesium drive. If the original Yaskawa drive doesn’t work, consider an SJ or WJ Hitachi drive. Be warned , that motor will make some back EMF on deceleration, the braking resistor in these drives is weak. Get your self an external braking unit and resistor.
cPCR are dc servo drives.

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18 Jul 2023 23:54 #275776 by camb0
Thx for the comments.
I did see your post on the resolver and yeah I agree it seems best to go with an aftermarket encoder. The motor is from the early 80's, looks like this one: www.ebay.com/itm/291757295683.
What did you mean by "cPCR are dc servo drives."

My overall approach was (for a hobby machine) to get a CNC machine and modernize over convert and manual mill and then with the CNC machine to try and set things up simple and replace the aging electronics (this is my first one of these).  I've achieved that with the motion, relays, control boards etc, but this is proving tricky due to the complexity of electrical engineering of power loads/motion and potentially expensive components/upgrades involved (as the experienced people know, but hey I'm learning). I've documented my next step and thought process (more for me than anything) but also because you peeps are the only ones I know that get this:

1) [Budget] Three phase is expensive here in Aus, they charge consumption plus line rental (~$1000/year rental if you use it or not). I need to call the pwr company see if I can negotiate out of that, there will still be the connection fee etc.
2) [Motor dropped] The motor was running when I bought the machine but I had an accident with the motor while redoing the oil system, it fell and damaged the resolver plug.  Fingers crossed the motor is ok but the resolver looks more intricate and the plug took the brunt of the impact and got minced. So if I go with the "use the existing drive" there's a risk it's dead in the water due to the resolver and it's not something I can test easily as I need 3 phase and fair bit of the machine to be moved to somewhere there is 3 phase outlet.
3) [VFD] The (cheap)VFD I bought aint up to the job.
3a) [Too small] for a single phase to drive three phase the current needed is way higher (3 wires worth of load over 1 wire). This is a case where buying based off kW only works if the phase's are matched, otherwise you've got to double (or more) the input rating (thx Tommy) .
3b) [Limited functionality] so can't control any of the key params/limits with this VFD.  I think it's fine for a single to three phase load but not for speed controlling an older spindle motor control that has requirements that are not 240v/415v.
3c) Sounds like braking is going to cause me headaches (might be able to add a mechanical brake as a work around?)
4) Yaskawa got back to me (wow amazing service) and are looking into it based off what I've given them.

So where I'm at:
5) call up and confirm the 3 phase upfront and ongoing costs as this influences what I can test/buy/do.
6) suck it and see (aussie expression to accept the risks and try it out) with the existing VFD and motor and limit the spindle load (service life/braking/other issues? ). OR
7) hook up three phase and:
  7a) try and repair the resolver and use the old driver. OR
  7b) buy a 3 phase industrial VFD that I can control OR (costly)
8) Look at aftermarket motors (cheap -> v'costly [use the chinese VFD and a 3000rpm induction motor and various iterations up to an industrial unit])

In preference order I'm thinking of 5 then option 6, then 8, then 7b.  That way I can start using it and spend the $$ to increase the usefulness of the machine based off actual usage/demand later on.  (I'm assuming Yaskawa comes back and will confirm the current state based off the reading I've done and the collective knowledge here)

I'd love to know your opinions/thoughts and or any suggestions as to where I might be missing some knowledge or options or have got my details wrong.
 

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19 Jul 2023 00:41 #275778 by spumco
I'm not familiar with AUS electrical system, but maybe a rotary 3-phase converter would be helpful?

Depending on hook-up fee, ongoing fees, and kw/hr rates for 1/3-ph, a phase converter big enough to feed this machine and maybe another might have a pretty fast payoff.

And if you have any industrial surplus suppliers within reasonable distance you could roll your own and save quite a lot.

Opens up a lot of options for a replacement VFD too.
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19 Jul 2023 02:32 #275784 by rodw
In .AU check out conon motor cononmotor.com.au/
If you do go down the VFD path, get a BD600 VFD from them as it will be specced for our 240v mains
On the forum here, search for VFDMOD. In the main thread about it, there are some settings for the BD600.
This plays nicely with qtdragon which has some status settings etc it displays.

To use the motor on a 240v VFD you need to change it from star to delta wiring (I think I have that the right way around)
Usually, there are some links in the motor terminal block to set this (and hopefully a diagram too). I ask a  mate when I have to do this!

PS I have a 5.5 kW VFD from them but it has 3 phase input...
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19 Jul 2023 04:22 #275787 by camb0
Thx Rod, these guys are just down the road from me and were reasonable to deal with last time I bought a 3kw motor for my belt sander.
Good to know they sell decent equipment.

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19 Jul 2023 05:39 #275790 by camb0
Thx again for the info Rod, after having had a bit of a read of the VFDMOD threads and the BD600 VFD manual I keep laughing about the vevor style VFD I purchased (not all VFD's are equal not by a long shot).

However I clearly need the motor specs, if I can't get that then I'm shooting in the dark and a solid chance of making smoke, I'm hoping that Yaskawa come back to me with that. But this unit looks like it could control other motors if I need to try and fail or go that direction from the get go.

Controlling it from linuxcnc via MODBUS and VFDMOD is pretty sweet, will read up on the extensions cards as it looks like it can do the closed loop control of the motor as well (not sure what would be better).
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19 Jul 2023 09:38 #275806 by rodw
Was looking for onfo on your motor and came across this thread
forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/32122...00v-retrofit?start=0

Picked up on the resolvers. Seems like they used the original VFD.
Pico systems have a conversion board forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/32122...00v-retrofit?start=0
And Mesa have the 7i49 resolver board and have stock store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=produc...oduct&product_id=101

Why don't you take the motor down to Conon and ask them?
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19 Jul 2023 14:02 #275815 by JR1050
I have a spare resolver, it’s in Florida. I don’t plan on using it. If you wanna pay the shipping... what plug does your have? Cannon or plastic?
Not remotely familiar with Aussie electric,, not sure any observations would be relevant. This machine has an MX-1 controller?
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