Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
- viesturs.lacis
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02 Dec 2020 20:35 - 02 Dec 2020 20:50 #190902
by viesturs.lacis
Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0 was created by viesturs.lacis
Hello!
I am trying to set up plasma machine. I have Mesa 7i96 and THCAD-300.
Customer wants to use their existing plasma source - Telwin Enterprise Plasma 160HF
The thing is that it is plasma source for manual cutting, so it does not have any inputs or outputs for cnc controls.
I put a relay in cabinet and connected it in parallel with torch switch for "torch on" and connected two wires to actual work leads of plasma torch cable and earth clamps for THCAD board.
My current problem is "arc-ok" signal.
I had no idea, how to do that in a safe and reliable manner until literally yesterday I found out about PlasmaC (although I am using LinuxCNC since 2010, but somehow had missed this component) and possibility to determine arc closing from plasma voltage.
What is puzzling me is this:
The measured voltage value is strange. First of all, particular value does not make sense to me considering the encoder scale etc values. Second of all, the measured value decreases, when voltage is applied to input pins of THCAD board.
Here are settings in PlasmaC:
PlasmaC settings
In HAL file for encoder module I have:
setp hm2_7i96.0.encoder.00.scale -1
setp hm2_7i96.0.encoder.00.filter 1
setp hm2_7i96.0.encoder.00.counter-mode 1
On THCAD board the sticker of calibration results say 120.5kHz for 0V input and 961.5kHz for 300V input
The jumper is set for 1/32 frequency division.
So basically with no voltage applied to THCAD, I should get 120.5/32 = 3,766 kHz output. With encoder scale = -1, encoder velocity should be around 3766. That is exactly what I see here (please note that I am probing plasmac.arc-voltage-out pin, that lower region of the curve is when PlasmaC tried to turn the torch on - it actually did turn on, but "arc-ok" state was not determined):
Torch off
Notice the placement of mouse pointer and the value at the bottom 3720.
Here is the value of measured volts, when the torch is on and the arc is established:
Torch on
Yes, when torch is off, there is some noise that seems to be a stable frequency. I tried to play with plasmac.lowpass-frequency, but am not sure I did set the value correctly (I tried to determine the frequency from the HalScope plot by calculating the time between the spikes and then trying to convert that to frequency value. It might be pretty good, because it looks way better than encoder.00.velocity graph.
Here are some pics of how encoder.00.velocity pin looks - the noise is when plasma is turned off, while the flat line is when plasma is actually turned on and the arc is established.
encoder.00.velocity
encoder.00.velocity
This is zoomed in on the noisy part. Seems pretty uniform to me:
EDIT: these 2 links will be posted separately, because the site complains that it is too much links here already...
The weird part is that with torch off the encoder velocity value of 3766 is more or less expected. What I do not understand, how the velocity value can be lower, if there is voltage applied to THCAD inputs. 3,76kHz output should be the lowest that card will do. And then suddenly I can get 3,05kHz with torch on. I can get something similar by applying 12VDC from PC PSU to THCAD inputs - the value also decreases, which makes absolutely no sense to me (yes, I tripple checked the polarity and also double checked that card is set for unipolar measurement).
Next weirdness that I did not find explanation for is the fact that on Axis GUI the "Arc voltage" is around 740, when the torch is off.
Encoder velocity is at 3760, plasmac voltage scale = 1, plasmac.arc-voltage out is 3760, but in GUI it shows approximately 740 (it is fluctuating due to the noise), which is approximately 5x lower. Where did this difference come from?
But do not worry, there is more weirdness that I do not understand. When the torch is turned on, encoder.00.velocity pin value drops to 3051. Plasmac.arc-voltage-out drops to 3051. Considering previously mentioned 5x difference between On Axis GUI "Arc voltage" should drop to 5x lower value of something around 610. But guess what - it was 51.
And how do I know, what values should I put in "OK High volts" and in "OK Low volts"? Which one of them should I try to catch? 610 or 51? Obviously 51 was not the right answer, because it falls inbetween 10 and 600, but "arc-ok" was not triggered.
I just would like someone to pat me on the shoulder and tell me, if I am doing this correctly or am I misunderstanding some basic concept of setting this machine up.
I am trying to set up plasma machine. I have Mesa 7i96 and THCAD-300.
Customer wants to use their existing plasma source - Telwin Enterprise Plasma 160HF
The thing is that it is plasma source for manual cutting, so it does not have any inputs or outputs for cnc controls.
I put a relay in cabinet and connected it in parallel with torch switch for "torch on" and connected two wires to actual work leads of plasma torch cable and earth clamps for THCAD board.
My current problem is "arc-ok" signal.
I had no idea, how to do that in a safe and reliable manner until literally yesterday I found out about PlasmaC (although I am using LinuxCNC since 2010, but somehow had missed this component) and possibility to determine arc closing from plasma voltage.
What is puzzling me is this:
The measured voltage value is strange. First of all, particular value does not make sense to me considering the encoder scale etc values. Second of all, the measured value decreases, when voltage is applied to input pins of THCAD board.
Here are settings in PlasmaC:
PlasmaC settings
In HAL file for encoder module I have:
setp hm2_7i96.0.encoder.00.scale -1
setp hm2_7i96.0.encoder.00.filter 1
setp hm2_7i96.0.encoder.00.counter-mode 1
On THCAD board the sticker of calibration results say 120.5kHz for 0V input and 961.5kHz for 300V input
The jumper is set for 1/32 frequency division.
So basically with no voltage applied to THCAD, I should get 120.5/32 = 3,766 kHz output. With encoder scale = -1, encoder velocity should be around 3766. That is exactly what I see here (please note that I am probing plasmac.arc-voltage-out pin, that lower region of the curve is when PlasmaC tried to turn the torch on - it actually did turn on, but "arc-ok" state was not determined):
Torch off
Notice the placement of mouse pointer and the value at the bottom 3720.
Here is the value of measured volts, when the torch is on and the arc is established:
Torch on
Yes, when torch is off, there is some noise that seems to be a stable frequency. I tried to play with plasmac.lowpass-frequency, but am not sure I did set the value correctly (I tried to determine the frequency from the HalScope plot by calculating the time between the spikes and then trying to convert that to frequency value. It might be pretty good, because it looks way better than encoder.00.velocity graph.
Here are some pics of how encoder.00.velocity pin looks - the noise is when plasma is turned off, while the flat line is when plasma is actually turned on and the arc is established.
encoder.00.velocity
encoder.00.velocity
This is zoomed in on the noisy part. Seems pretty uniform to me:
EDIT: these 2 links will be posted separately, because the site complains that it is too much links here already...
The weird part is that with torch off the encoder velocity value of 3766 is more or less expected. What I do not understand, how the velocity value can be lower, if there is voltage applied to THCAD inputs. 3,76kHz output should be the lowest that card will do. And then suddenly I can get 3,05kHz with torch on. I can get something similar by applying 12VDC from PC PSU to THCAD inputs - the value also decreases, which makes absolutely no sense to me (yes, I tripple checked the polarity and also double checked that card is set for unipolar measurement).
Next weirdness that I did not find explanation for is the fact that on Axis GUI the "Arc voltage" is around 740, when the torch is off.
Encoder velocity is at 3760, plasmac voltage scale = 1, plasmac.arc-voltage out is 3760, but in GUI it shows approximately 740 (it is fluctuating due to the noise), which is approximately 5x lower. Where did this difference come from?
But do not worry, there is more weirdness that I do not understand. When the torch is turned on, encoder.00.velocity pin value drops to 3051. Plasmac.arc-voltage-out drops to 3051. Considering previously mentioned 5x difference between On Axis GUI "Arc voltage" should drop to 5x lower value of something around 610. But guess what - it was 51.
And how do I know, what values should I put in "OK High volts" and in "OK Low volts"? Which one of them should I try to catch? 610 or 51? Obviously 51 was not the right answer, because it falls inbetween 10 and 600, but "arc-ok" was not triggered.
I just would like someone to pat me on the shoulder and tell me, if I am doing this correctly or am I misunderstanding some basic concept of setting this machine up.
Last edit: 02 Dec 2020 20:50 by viesturs.lacis.
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02 Dec 2020 20:51 #190905
by viesturs.lacis
Replied by viesturs.lacis on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
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02 Dec 2020 21:42 #190909
by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
Would you please remove those links and upload the pictures here on the forum???
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02 Dec 2020 22:11 #190915
by phillc54
Replied by phillc54 on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
You need to set the Voltage Scale and Voltage Offset according to these instructions:
linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/plasma/plasma...ng_the_divider_ratio
You can use an online calculator once you know your divider ratio:
jscalc.io/calc/NTr5QDX6WgMThBVb
linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/plasma/plasma...ng_the_divider_ratio
You can use an online calculator once you know your divider ratio:
jscalc.io/calc/NTr5QDX6WgMThBVb
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03 Dec 2020 00:09 #190925
by tommylight
A simple search fro THCAD300 would have returned more than one instance of me and PCW mentioning not to wire them to HF plasma cutters, yours has that on the name !
So the first thing to do is disconnect the THCAD, take some pictures of the insides of the plasma cutter and post them here, check the THCAD if it survived by using a 9V battery or two of them just to be sure it reads properly the voltage. We need pictures to point out where inside the plasma cutter can the THCAD be wired as there is only one safe place, directly on the rectifier outputs.
Replied by tommylight on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
From the THCAD manual, also mentioned several times here :I am trying to set up plasma machine. I have Mesa 7i96 and THCAD-300.
Customer wants to use their existing plasma source - Telwin Enterprise Plasma 160HF
The 300V version of the THCAD has all input divider resistor on board and can connect directly to the plasma voltage of touch start type torches only.
And that is the worst place to wire a THC as it will suffer through 20000V or more every time the torch is fired.and connected two wires to actual work leads of plasma torch cable and earth clamps for THCAD board.
A simple search fro THCAD300 would have returned more than one instance of me and PCW mentioning not to wire them to HF plasma cutters, yours has that on the name !
So the first thing to do is disconnect the THCAD, take some pictures of the insides of the plasma cutter and post them here, check the THCAD if it survived by using a 9V battery or two of them just to be sure it reads properly the voltage. We need pictures to point out where inside the plasma cutter can the THCAD be wired as there is only one safe place, directly on the rectifier outputs.
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03 Dec 2020 03:08 #190930
by rodw
Replied by rodw on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
With regard the noise, I have had similar issues which were solved by careful attention to a star ground to every motor and over every sliding linear rail AND the addition of a RFI/EMI filter on the mains power input. I bought a cheap USB oscilloscope so I could see what was going on and found most noise was entering via the mains power input.
So the other comments about HF (you must connect your thcad before the HF start module) and scaling the output still apply.
You could also encourage your customer to upgrade to a later TELWIN model with a CNC port. It is interesting because it also has an input allowing current adjustment via 0-10 volt PWM from memory.
So the other comments about HF (you must connect your thcad before the HF start module) and scaling the output still apply.
You could also encourage your customer to upgrade to a later TELWIN model with a CNC port. It is interesting because it also has an input allowing current adjustment via 0-10 volt PWM from memory.
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03 Dec 2020 05:18 #190933
by viesturs.lacis
Ok, I attached the pictures
Replied by viesturs.lacis on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
Would you please remove those links and upload the pictures here on the forum???
Ok, I attached the pictures
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03 Dec 2020 05:25 #190934
by viesturs.lacis
Well, that is not good. I specifically looked at the manual to check, if 300V version will do and my conclusion was "yes", but now I have no idea, how did I get that or where did I look, because yes, I just looked at the manual again and it says your quoted sentence in the first page...
Ok, I will be there again tomorrow and I will take some pictures of the plasma source.
I already have the filter installed and have grounded the main frame, control cabinet and shields of all cables. I will post some pictures tomorrow.
Replied by viesturs.lacis on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
From the THCAD manual, also mentioned several times here :I am trying to set up plasma machine. I have Mesa 7i96 and THCAD-300.
Customer wants to use their existing plasma source - Telwin Enterprise Plasma 160HFThe 300V version of the THCAD has all input divider resistor on board and can connect directly to the plasma voltage of touch start type torches only.And that is the worst place to wire a THC as it will suffer through 20000V or more every time the torch is fired.and connected two wires to actual work leads of plasma torch cable and earth clamps for THCAD board.
Well, that is not good. I specifically looked at the manual to check, if 300V version will do and my conclusion was "yes", but now I have no idea, how did I get that or where did I look, because yes, I just looked at the manual again and it says your quoted sentence in the first page...
Ok, I will be there again tomorrow and I will take some pictures of the plasma source.
With regard the noise, I have had similar issues which were solved by careful attention to a star ground to every motor and over every sliding linear rail AND the addition of a RFI/EMI filter on the mains power input. I bought a cheap USB oscilloscope so I could see what was going on and found most noise was entering via the mains power input.
I already have the filter installed and have grounded the main frame, control cabinet and shields of all cables. I will post some pictures tomorrow.
Unfortunately that is not going to happen. We already had the discussion and they want to go as cheap as possible so using existing plasma source is a must.You could also encourage your customer to upgrade to a later TELWIN model with a CNC port. It is interesting because it also has an input allowing current adjustment via 0-10 volt PWM from memory.
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03 Dec 2020 10:26 #190948
by rodw
Thats the problem. Really the words CNC Plasma cutting and as cheap as possible don't really go together.
Replied by rodw on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
Unfortunately that is not going to happen. We already had the discussion and they want to go as cheap as possible so using existing plasma source is a must.
Thats the problem. Really the words CNC Plasma cutting and as cheap as possible don't really go together.
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03 Dec 2020 10:45 #190949
by phillc54
I disagree, cheap as possible is the reason I came to LinuxCNC originally.
Replied by phillc54 on topic Cannot get arc-ok in Mode 0
Unfortunately that is not going to happen. We already had the discussion and they want to go as cheap as possible so using existing plasma source is a must.
Thats the problem. Really the words CNC Plasma cutting and as cheap as possible don't really go together.
I disagree, cheap as possible is the reason I came to LinuxCNC originally.
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