Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
03 Jan 2023 15:38 - 03 Jan 2023 15:42 #260849
by scotth
Replied by scotth on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
Update:Over 2 weeks up, no problems.
The test program is about a 10-hour run.
The test program is about a 10-hour run.
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Last edit: 03 Jan 2023 15:42 by scotth.
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- Todd Zuercher
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03 Jan 2023 17:02 #260852
by Todd Zuercher
Replied by Todd Zuercher on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
Just curios, does anyone know what the difference is between Rod's kernel and the broken Debian one? or in other words what the real problem is with the Debian one so we can suggest a proper fix for them?
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03 Jan 2023 17:21 #260854
by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
Not a Debian issue, it is a kernel issue when using RealTek network cards, for some unknown reason those cause the link to Mesa cards to drop very often.
Intel network cards work without issues.
The driver is not broken per se, as it works properly for everything, except causing some longer latency spikes, this can be noticed even when opening pages or playing youtube videos at high resolution, on Realtek network cards it is a bit slower. Obviously you would need two PC's with the same performance and different NIC's to be able to notice.
Rod tested and found a driver that works properly with those Realtek NIC's.
Some of my thoughts on this:
-Not much use the RT kernel compared to vanilla one, so probably will not be fixed at all.
-Might be due to implementing power saving stuff into the new kernels as there are more laptops in use than desktops and Linux has come a long way to become more efficient than windoze, another reason it might not be fixed.
-Did not check the audio/video editing stuff lately, they do use some of the RT kernels but no idea what or how, been to long. Now if this lot starts to complain about it, that might just push things our way.
Intel network cards work without issues.
The driver is not broken per se, as it works properly for everything, except causing some longer latency spikes, this can be noticed even when opening pages or playing youtube videos at high resolution, on Realtek network cards it is a bit slower. Obviously you would need two PC's with the same performance and different NIC's to be able to notice.
Rod tested and found a driver that works properly with those Realtek NIC's.
Some of my thoughts on this:
-Not much use the RT kernel compared to vanilla one, so probably will not be fixed at all.
-Might be due to implementing power saving stuff into the new kernels as there are more laptops in use than desktops and Linux has come a long way to become more efficient than windoze, another reason it might not be fixed.
-Did not check the audio/video editing stuff lately, they do use some of the RT kernels but no idea what or how, been to long. Now if this lot starts to complain about it, that might just push things our way.
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03 Jan 2023 17:26 #260855
by Todd Zuercher
Replied by Todd Zuercher on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
It is a Debian issue if they choose or compile a buggy kernel version for release.
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03 Jan 2023 18:15 #260862
by scotth
Replied by scotth on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
I wish I could help on the Reaktek issue, but my only Linux box with a Realtek NIC is running my network server. It is running openSUSE Leap Linux: 5.3.18-150300.59.106-default. With 20 tb online, I won't shut it down for testing.
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03 Jan 2023 21:35 #260872
by rodw
Replied by rodw on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
Its a Debian kernel issue.
The pristine source from kernel.org (which I used) does not exhibit the problem.
Also its not evident on non debian distros. I tried Arch Linux which was fine.
There is a current thread that shows how you can change settings in the grub command line and lists some changes between Buster and bookworm.
forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/47825-latency-test
It would be interesting to compare the kernal configuration settings of Debian with the pristine version to find the differences but thats beyond me.
It mght then be possible to fix the issue from the grub config.
The other issue with realtek is that Debian (not sure if its just Debian or is in the pristine source too) is that they have attempted to roll multiple Realtek drivers into one package. This works but is not optimal for network latency and is not how Realtek does it. A second driver package r8168-dkms is compiled at install time to the currently running kernel headers will give better support on some hardware but requires the pristine kernel to eliminate error finishing read. I might add that Hardkernel the Odroid guys state that the Debian r8125 driver is 15-30% slower than the Realtek driver and suggest building it on their hardware.
I have lodged a bug with Debian, but its not attracted any interest.
The pristine source from kernel.org (which I used) does not exhibit the problem.
Also its not evident on non debian distros. I tried Arch Linux which was fine.
There is a current thread that shows how you can change settings in the grub command line and lists some changes between Buster and bookworm.
forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/47825-latency-test
It would be interesting to compare the kernal configuration settings of Debian with the pristine version to find the differences but thats beyond me.
It mght then be possible to fix the issue from the grub config.
The other issue with realtek is that Debian (not sure if its just Debian or is in the pristine source too) is that they have attempted to roll multiple Realtek drivers into one package. This works but is not optimal for network latency and is not how Realtek does it. A second driver package r8168-dkms is compiled at install time to the currently running kernel headers will give better support on some hardware but requires the pristine kernel to eliminate error finishing read. I might add that Hardkernel the Odroid guys state that the Debian r8125 driver is 15-30% slower than the Realtek driver and suggest building it on their hardware.
I have lodged a bug with Debian, but its not attracted any interest.
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03 Jan 2023 22:54 #260879
by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
Debian = www.debian.org
Kernel = www.kernel.org
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Moving on:
Last few days i have been testing a Lenovo IdeaPad Y700 with Linux Mint 21, RT kernel 6.0.0-6, that has a realtek network card, it just did a bit over 4 hours without dropping the link to Mesa 7i92.
Sure enough running youtube or OBS Studio with screengrab and two cameras will drop the link immediately.
If i get a chance i will install the drivers as per Rod's tutorial and do some more testing.
Kernel = www.kernel.org
-
Moving on:
Last few days i have been testing a Lenovo IdeaPad Y700 with Linux Mint 21, RT kernel 6.0.0-6, that has a realtek network card, it just did a bit over 4 hours without dropping the link to Mesa 7i92.
Sure enough running youtube or OBS Studio with screengrab and two cameras will drop the link immediately.
If i get a chance i will install the drivers as per Rod's tutorial and do some more testing.
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03 Jan 2023 23:00 #260880
by tommylight
As far as Debian is concerned it works, otherwise it would not be included on their servers.
And as Rod noted, they do not care much that we have issues with it as we are very few that use the RT kernel compared to Debian's user base.
Replied by tommylight on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
On the post before this, i was trying to explain that it is not an issue for Debian at all, it is for us.It is a Debian issue if they choose or compile a buggy kernel version for release.
As far as Debian is concerned it works, otherwise it would not be included on their servers.
And as Rod noted, they do not care much that we have issues with it as we are very few that use the RT kernel compared to Debian's user base.
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04 Jan 2023 02:07 #260888
by tommylight
Been running for over an hour with no issues so far, using Rod's premade kernel, while watching youtube and recording with OBS Studio at 2560X1440 resolution.
Heads up, this is a laptop, so the processor has to be set in the "performance" mode by the CPU governor, otherwise there are latency errors, but the link remains OK.
Replied by tommylight on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
Been running for over an hour with no issues so far, using Rod's premade kernel, while watching youtube and recording with OBS Studio at 2560X1440 resolution.
Heads up, this is a laptop, so the processor has to be set in the "performance" mode by the CPU governor, otherwise there are latency errors, but the link remains OK.
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04 Jan 2023 07:41 #260901
by rodw
bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1022170
I have asked for support before but no user has joined in so its me standing alone.
Get on the bus guys. If there were 10-20 reports they might listen...
Replied by rodw on topic Installing LinuxCNC 2.9 or Master on Linux Mint 21
I really think anybody who has issues with this should be logging to this Debian bug
It is a Debian issue if they choose or compile a buggy kernel version for release.
On the post before this, i was trying to explain that it is not an issue for Debian at all, it is for us.
As far as Debian is concerned it works, otherwise it would not be included on their servers.
And as Rod noted, they do not care much that we have issues with it as we are very few that use the RT kernel compared to Debian's user base.
bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1022170
I have asked for support before but no user has joined in so its me standing alone.
Get on the bus guys. If there were 10-20 reports they might listen...
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