Anyone seen this?

andypugh wrote:

To sell an EtherCAT slave device you need a licence from Beckhoff (unless you are Chinese and don't care).

That would need to be factored in to the price, but I don't know how much they charge.
 

I don't think that is correct. That's kinda like the GPL stuff, people always think a certain thing and repeat it but nobody really ever looks at it. The cost of the EtherCAT slave device is part of the ESC chip. Taken from the EtherCAT website:

• 3.3 How about licences? There is a licence for implementing an EtherCAT master which is free of charge - the agreement demands compatibility, ensures that the licence remains free of charge and provides legal certainty. For slave devices EtherCAT has adopted the CAN license model (CAN is an excellent example for a standardized open technology that is protected by patents): The small license fee is "embedded" in the EtherCAT Slave Controller (ESC) chip, so ESC vendors need a license, but device manufacturers, end users, system integrators, tool manufacturers etc. do not have to pay a license.

I do believe you need a Vendor ID from the ETG. That vendor ID get's written to the EEPROM that the ESC boots from. From what I gather, that is also "free of charge"

Vendor IDEach EtherCAT compliant device has to implement the worldwide unique Vendor ID assigned by ETG. The EtherCAT Vendor ID Usage is governed by the ETG Vendor ID Policy and the corresponding Vendor ID agreement, which asks for conformance with the EtherCAT specifications. In order to clarify this policy, the general rules are repeated below:

• Each vendor of an EtherCAT device has to be an ETG member and has to obtain and maintain a valid Vendor ID from the EtherCAT Technology Group
• The Vendor ID is free of charge
• The vendor has to implement the Vendor ID in each EtherCAT device prior to making it available on the market
• Manufacturers of machines, which integrate and use EtherCAT devices in combination with or in such machines, are not required to apply for and use a Vendor ID

That doesn't have anything to do with "Conformance Testing", which is also not required. A Company like Beckoff will likely do something like that and charge accordingly. But there's no reason for anyone else to do it:

4.5 Do we have to submit our EtherCAT device to a Conformance Test Center?   No. Performing the conformance test at an official EtherCAT Test Center is optional - however, your customer may require a conformance certificate, which is only issued after passing the test at such a lab. You have to ensure conformance by applying the official Conformance Test Tool (CTT) at your R&D facilities, though. The CTT is licensed as a subscription in order to ensure the long term maintenance and further development of the tool with a yearly contribution.

So from what I can find, there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from just buying some ESC chips, making a thing, selling it, and charging what they charge. If I'm missing something please post a link.

Just saw Mesa Electronics is a member of the ETG.....saw that coming lol

I can't edit the above post because it turns into a big blob. What I did realize by re-reading the text that I posted myself is that they probably get you on the "Conformance Testing". You don't have to send the device to a lab for the ETG to do it as I cited, but it looks like you do actually have to use some kind of "Conformance Test Tool" to validate something or other and it's likely that this is where they hit you with some charge. I haven't found anything restrictive about the "license" itself.

I'm curious what this Conformance Test Tool is so I'll have to look more into that

I contacted the ETG and got the details. It's pretty much as I said about the EtherCAT license stuff itself, there's no cost, there's just a requirement to be a registered business.

I was also correct about the whole "Conformance Testing" thing. There's a device that Beckoff sells with an annual license  and it reports back conformance test data on whatever device. I got a quote from Beckoff for it, it's actually not too bad. It is prohibitive to go through all that to sell 3 of a thing on Tindie, but it's not a deal breaker to make something reasonably low cost available if you're going to sell a fair amount.

So I guess the question is "what is something that people would actually buy?" You can't really beat Mesa cards even with EtherCAT...it'd be nice if they sold one but a microcontroller based machine controller is not going to be better than a Mesa FPGA card EtherCAT or not. I'm working on a PCB for a EtherCAT based control panel but people don't really seem all that interested in that. I am a business and can join the ETG and get the Beckoff stuff for CTT but unless I can identify something that people actually want it's pointless to do it. I'm terrible with software so I'd have to get help, paid or otherwise to get it going properly....but I don't really think it's out of the question.

I think there will also be a place for Mesa Hardware as its an amazing ecosystem and fantastic for retrofits.

For a new build designed for resale, Ethercat is very attractive but more costly. Well planned, there is significatly less wiring and its far more flexible. Say on a gantry table, why not use AC servos and place a IO module for home and limits with the servo driver right beside the motor? Or put another up on the gantry head  and/or tool changer?

There are all kinds of cables available today. Why not use one with 3 phase power for servos and ethernet combined?

Don't loose sight of the fact that CNC is a small corner case with Ethercat technology and pales in comparison with factory automation. Your market is much larger than CNC.

rodw wrote:

I think there will also be a place for Mesa Hardware as its an amazing ecosystem and fantastic for retrofits.

For a new build designed for resale, Ethercat is very attractive but more costly. Well planned, there is significatly less wiring and its far more flexible. Say on a gantry table, why not use AC servos and place a IO module for home and limits with the servo driver right beside the motor? Or put another up on the gantry head  and/or tool changer?

There are all kinds of cables available today. Why not use one with 3 phase power for servos and ethernet combined?

Don't loose sight of the fact that CNC is a small corner case with Ethercat technology and pales in comparison with factory automation. Your market is much larger than CNC.
 

Well I don't think anyone's trying to replace Mesa, it's still generally the best bang for the buck. I'm just sort of mentioning that I think they can actually offer EtherCAT based versions of cards to integrate into the big picture of a machine just running EtherCAT hardware. It's always more complicated than I think it is, but I think those Ethernet Cards don't actually need to be physically changed at all to do so.

Not sure I'd want to stick servo drives right next to motors or on gantry's or use AC servo cable that's combined with Ethernet. Those all seem like very bad ideas from a EMI and caps falling off of PCBs perspective. The point about the IO module is actually understated tho, most of the newer EtherCAT drives I've seen have a few GPIO right on the drive and since it's EtherCAT you should just be able to read/write it just the same. The limit and home switches can just be connected to the drive itself without the need for an IO module.

It's all still very expensive though, I just looked at the price of the Leadshine EtherCAT servo drives and they're up there which is why the Mesa stuff will still be appealing for a long time. As for the whole factory automation thing, I've been looking at dusty old Siemens PLCs for years....actually I wish it was just Siemens PLCs but that's a different story. No small scale manufacturer can deal with that level of scrutiny, which goes to the point of the reason it costs so much but I don't see Siemens PLCs in stuff that's not at least on the level of a Haas so I don't know that people would use that level of stuff around here given a choice.