Current turning capabilities status
05 Feb 2013 17:06 #29626
by andypugh
It might be the case (in fact it probably is) that the motor will work well wired permanently in "star" (also known as Y and Wye) on 440V.
Replied by andypugh on topic Current turning capabilities status
The main problem will be the voltage. 220V they do not stock.
It might be the case (in fact it probably is) that the motor will work well wired permanently in "star" (also known as Y and Wye) on 440V.
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05 Feb 2013 18:28 #29630
by emcPT
Replied by emcPT on topic Current turning capabilities status
I will try to find a 230V as it would be on the safe side. If I can't then I will thing in another possibility.
Thanks. Again.
Thanks. Again.
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05 Feb 2013 20:45 #29641
by emcPT
Replied by emcPT on topic Current turning capabilities status
I received a quote for a Mitsubishi
FR-F720-00770-NA
Less than 1800€. I must double check if it is flux-vector, but it seams that the work is not industry standard, so they may call it a different thing.
Thank you.
FR-F720-00770-NA
Less than 1800€. I must double check if it is flux-vector, but it seams that the work is not industry standard, so they may call it a different thing.
Thank you.
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05 Feb 2013 22:02 #29647
by andypugh
It may be that it is such a standard feature on modern VFDs that it is not worth mentioning.
www.vfds.com/manuals/mitsubishi-f700-manual.pdf
Page 79 says that it offers flux-vector control.
The top of page 174 holds the good news that +/-10V control allows bidirectional operation, which will be useful for positioning control.
Replied by andypugh on topic Current turning capabilities status
FR-F720-00770-NA
I must double check if it is flux-vector,
It may be that it is such a standard feature on modern VFDs that it is not worth mentioning.
www.vfds.com/manuals/mitsubishi-f700-manual.pdf
Page 79 says that it offers flux-vector control.
The top of page 174 holds the good news that +/-10V control allows bidirectional operation, which will be useful for positioning control.
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07 Feb 2013 20:03 #29757
by emcPT
Replied by emcPT on topic Current turning capabilities status
Just to update.
The Mitsubishi that I referred is not "fully suited" for vector flux control, only the A series. The price is also higher for the 15Kw motor and with a 1 month delivery time, so for peace of mind I ordered a smaller one (3.7Kw) to test on the motor before I buy the big one.
I hope that the smaller one is only not capable of delivering the full range of Amps and it would be enough to get the motor running and to tell me that it would be safe to buy the larger.
The Mitsubishi that I referred is not "fully suited" for vector flux control, only the A series. The price is also higher for the 15Kw motor and with a 1 month delivery time, so for peace of mind I ordered a smaller one (3.7Kw) to test on the motor before I buy the big one.
I hope that the smaller one is only not capable of delivering the full range of Amps and it would be enough to get the motor running and to tell me that it would be safe to buy the larger.
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- Kirk_Wallace
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09 Feb 2013 06:08 #29797
by Kirk_Wallace
Replied by Kirk_Wallace on topic Current turning capabilities status
I've run large motors with small VFD's for no load testing, but found that the VFD needs to be tuned so that it won't alarm. I think I needed to lower the voltage to RPM map, but I'm not sure.
You can also lower the output voltage to run a 220 Volt motor from 440 Volt mains, but you may need to derate the VFD specs.
I doubt you will be able to get a VFD to run well enough for a C axis. Indexing for tool changing should be okay. My impression is that a separate motor and positioning system is geared or clutched in for C axis function.
--
Kirk Wallace
www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
You can also lower the output voltage to run a 220 Volt motor from 440 Volt mains, but you may need to derate the VFD specs.
I doubt you will be able to get a VFD to run well enough for a C axis. Indexing for tool changing should be okay. My impression is that a separate motor and positioning system is geared or clutched in for C axis function.
--
Kirk Wallace
www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
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09 Feb 2013 15:32 #29800
by emcPT
Replied by emcPT on topic Current turning capabilities status
I will keep the forum updated.
Both the VFD are for 220V, so not problem there. And both VFD are intended to work with an encoder. I have no personal experience using a VFD in closed loop, but lets see what it will turn out.
My first objective is to use the current motor, even without C axis.
Filipe
Both the VFD are for 220V, so not problem there. And both VFD are intended to work with an encoder. I have no personal experience using a VFD in closed loop, but lets see what it will turn out.
My first objective is to use the current motor, even without C axis.
Filipe
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10 Feb 2013 16:53 #29846
by emcPT
Replied by emcPT on topic Current turning capabilities status
This Saturday I was able to access the motor and clean it.
The motor indeed have an encoder attached, but the encoder is optical, working on a slotted disc. I can see from the electrical schematic that the encoder is 12VDC. This will not be suitable to the Mitsubishi drive that I bought, so I also ordered a TTL encoder with 2500ppr and index.
Accordingly to the Mitsubishi manual I must use a TTL encoder with ppr between 1000ppr and 4000ppr. I must also buy a separated card to the Mitsubishi where the encoder will be connected, so the total price is high.
While I am expecting the material (it will take a while to receive all) I have questions that are confused to me, and I could not found anyone that made this before:
1) If the VFD will receive the encoder signal how will linuxcnc know where the spindle is?
2) How will I control the spindle to make, lets say a movement of 5º?
Anyone made this before? Used a flux vector drive?
Thank you
The motor indeed have an encoder attached, but the encoder is optical, working on a slotted disc. I can see from the electrical schematic that the encoder is 12VDC. This will not be suitable to the Mitsubishi drive that I bought, so I also ordered a TTL encoder with 2500ppr and index.
Accordingly to the Mitsubishi manual I must use a TTL encoder with ppr between 1000ppr and 4000ppr. I must also buy a separated card to the Mitsubishi where the encoder will be connected, so the total price is high.
While I am expecting the material (it will take a while to receive all) I have questions that are confused to me, and I could not found anyone that made this before:
1) If the VFD will receive the encoder signal how will linuxcnc know where the spindle is?
2) How will I control the spindle to make, lets say a movement of 5º?
Anyone made this before? Used a flux vector drive?
Thank you
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10 Feb 2013 17:23 #29848
by andypugh
It would be much cheaper and easier to keep the existing encoder and convert the 12v signals to TTL.
It might not even be necessary to connect the encoder to the drive at all. It might be possible to connect the encoder to LinuxCNC only. That would close the position loop inside LinuxCNC not in the drive.
How does the drive accept position information when it has encoder feedback?
The example I posted (which admittedly did not work very well) had no connection between the encoder and the drive. The drive was simply being controlled with speed and direction signals.
Replied by andypugh on topic Current turning capabilities status
This Saturday I was able to access the motor and clean it.
The motor indeed have an encoder attached, but the encoder is optical, working on a slotted disc. I can see from the electrical schematic that the encoder is 12VDC. This will not be suitable to the Mitsubishi drive that I bought, so I also ordered a TTL encoder with 2500ppr and index.
It would be much cheaper and easier to keep the existing encoder and convert the 12v signals to TTL.
It might not even be necessary to connect the encoder to the drive at all. It might be possible to connect the encoder to LinuxCNC only. That would close the position loop inside LinuxCNC not in the drive.
How does the drive accept position information when it has encoder feedback?
The example I posted (which admittedly did not work very well) had no connection between the encoder and the drive. The drive was simply being controlled with speed and direction signals.
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10 Feb 2013 17:45 #29850
by emcPT
Replied by emcPT on topic Current turning capabilities status
Converting the 12V to TTL I think I could (simple voltage divider no?)
>>> How does the drive accept position information when it has encoder feedback?
I will get back to Mitsubishi dealer.
Andy: You are very friendly and helpful. Thank you.
>>> How does the drive accept position information when it has encoder feedback?
I will get back to Mitsubishi dealer.
Andy: You are very friendly and helpful. Thank you.
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