HAAS VF1 retrofit

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26 Jul 2014 08:29 - 26 Jul 2014 08:45 #49158 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
It will make sense eventually..
I just have to open my mind up and do a lot of reading.

My strengths are mechanical and electrical, not so much in the programing.

Its been a long time , since Mach3 was still Mach1 and EMC2 was released as a BDI...
My first attempt at building a CNC machine was a bust, lots of things got in the way..

Got a great deal on this old HAAS and now is the time to make it all happen.. finally...

Thanks.
Last edit: 26 Jul 2014 08:45 by sspeed33317.

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28 Jul 2014 07:11 #49202 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
I have installed the latest 2.6 from the latest ISO on wheezy..

So far works great , hope to have my Mesa hardware sometime this week.

One thing i noticed my latency test is half of what it was .
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28 Jul 2014 23:37 #49226 by JR1050
Replied by JR1050 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
The spindle orient is fairly easy. If it is using a switch watch for it to go high , then stop and brake the spindle. Using an encoder is very easy, set the index pulse at orient position , jog the spindle at orient speed, either by analog command or by a jog speed set in the vfd ,when the pulse goes low, lock your pin. Very similar to the Brown and Sharpe spindle. I would use a 3 Phase vfd and a phase converter. I have had good luck with the Hitachi wj 200 and sj 700. The wj does not take a bi polar signal, it has a fwd and reverse command and uses 0-10 v . Fuji , yaskawa, Mitsubishi hitachi all make inexpensive very smart drives. The yaskawa is the more expensive of the bunch, but I suspect it is also the most robust. Do not overlook braking, the internal braking transistor in some of the less expensive drives tend to be weak, you will need a braking resistor any way, consider an external braking transistor unit.

Andy is right about writing a component for this, it is the way to go.

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29 Jul 2014 08:36 #49232 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
I have so much to learn...

I was thinking about using a Spedestar VFD, made for single phase input.
Running 3 phase to my workshop is out of the question, I have to look into
phase converters.

When I removed the HAAS control i unplugged everything, no cutting.
so most of it will only have to be reconnected to the new boards.

I like the Hitachi WJ200 , I would have to get a 15 hp to be able to run it on single phase.
But it has homing built in which would be useful with the orient.
And I think there is a component already built for linuxcnc read about it somewhere.

I ordered the boards from Mesa how long do they usually take for delivery?
Everything showed in stock so I hope this week so I can work on the weekend.

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29 Jul 2014 10:10 #49238 by JR1050
Replied by JR1050 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
I dont know how well a single phase VfD is going to produce the torque needed thru out the rpm range you will be running. You definitely will want to use a drive that can be run in Vector mode or you will find it will be very weak in the higher rpm's.

I dont think the homing on the WJ is going to solve the orient issue. A VF1 is basicly Haas version of a Fadal vmc 40. If it is using some sort of an encoder, home it to the index or create a parameter in angular degrees. If it homes to roller switch like a fadal jog the spindle until the switch snaps into the groove in the pulley, then kill the jog command.

Either way you will either have to write a component or do it in ladder. there is no pre written orient sequence that Im aware of in EMC. I think there are hal pins in an orient component in 2.6 , these are only pins tied to the M19 code, there is no logic. This makes sense as, every machine uses a different orient sequence.

This whole thing always seems overwhelming, go for moving the axis and hitting a home switch!!

The mesa 7i37(i think) will work for decoding a keyboard and does have an mpg counter, but that wont leave you much i/o for buttons and switches. I would decode the keyboard with an Ipac or pokeys(being usb) and use a 7i84 for buttons knobs ect, if you choose to use the Haas operator panel.

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29 Jul 2014 15:01 #49244 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit

sspeed33317 wrote: I was thinking about using a Spedestar VFD, made for single phase input.
Running 3 phase to my workshop is out of the question, I have to look into
phase converters.


I don't see that there would be any reason not to run a single-phase _input_ VFD as long as the power rating is correct for the motor, and also either the VFD output voltage matches the motor voltage, or the motor can be reconfigured to suit the VFD output voltage.

Typically in the UK we run 240V single phase, and 440V three-phase. You can buy step-up VFDs that take 240V single phase input and output 440V three-phase, but they are expensive.

More common is to use a 240V single-phase input VFD that outputs 240V three-phase, then wire the motor Delta rather than Star so that the motor is now a 240V three-phase motor.

This gets increasingly difficult as the motor size increases. I think that typically single-phase input VFDs at UK voltages only go up to about 7hp.

If the Speedstar VFD matches your supply voltage and the motor power/voltage then I see no reason not to use it.

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29 Jul 2014 18:51 #49251 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Yea the keyboard has well over 64 keys,
An idea came to mind, someone should develop a CNC keypad with the most common
needed keys that will easily interface to the mesa pendant board, so it may be me that does it.

It may not end up being a fancy flexible multi layer but it will work.. eventually.... :-)

I have to look into how the Spedestar operates before I pull the trigger..but for this week rent is due.

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30 Jul 2014 12:04 #49280 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Well, i was reall y hoping to not have to remove the spindle covers yet but......
got the info off the spindle controller and it reads 3.7kw output.
That is only 5 horsepower. I thought i have a 7.5hp spindle.
Could they have run it this way with a 7.5 motor?

I guess if you never use the power at full potential then I guess you can get
away with using a smaller drive on a larger motor?

Just to be safe I am going to remove the covers..

And is sensorless vector good enough for CNC? I can make it sensor vector also if i have a encoder hooked up.
This is with the WJ200,

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30 Jul 2014 14:25 #49281 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit

sspeed33317 wrote: And is sensorless vector good enough for CNC? I can make it sensor vector also if i have a encoder hooked up.
This is with the WJ200,


It depends on what you need to do. Many people CNC with manual on/off control of the spindle.
Sensorless vector will help at very low spindle speeds, and might be enough for spindle orient with a plunger/switch arrangement.
If you want spindle-synchronised motion then you need a spindle encoder, which might or might not also be suitable as an encoder for the drive depending on if the spindle motor is direct-drive or not.

A typical arrangement is probably a sensorless vector drive controlling the motor and an encoder feeding back to LinuxCNC on the spindle for rigid tapping and/or tool change orient. But with a spindle encoder you could rigid tap with a simple non-vector drive, LinuxCNC makes the axes follow the spindle encoder, rather than trying to control the spindle as a closed-loop axis.
The following user(s) said Thank You: sspeed33317

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31 Jul 2014 09:16 #49314 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Well I received an email reply from Lee Osborne

He is very busy but gave me a quick explanation on how he managed
his Cincinatti tool changer, operates pretty much the same as a HAAS.
He did it using GCode subroutines.
Commanding a o<tool1> instead of a T1 M6.

Also he says he is keeping the machine running 12 hours a day...

I'm starting to feel a little more confident I can get this thing going.

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