HAAS VF1 retrofit

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12 Aug 2014 09:35 - 12 Aug 2014 09:43 #49731 by JR1050
Replied by JR1050 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Im not sure you can run the tool carousel as an axis, I have not worked on a Haas, but I suspect it is run by a plain motor and uses a geneva cam like a Fadal.Even if it is run by a servo and has an encoder, you will have to write a function to count angular degrees to get to you intended tool. think, #of tools/encoder count per rev. You would be much wiser to write his in either ladder or as a component. Consider you also have to put the old tool back ,go the shortest route to the next tool,move the head, then do all the things to actually change tools. I think your looking at something more like this.


tool change signal goes hi
stop and brake spindle
orient and lock spin(which requires a set jog speed or spindle speed set)
send carousel forward(making sure the correct pocket is empty for old tool)
make sure carousel is forward
unclamp drawbar
make sure db is in fact unclamped
move head up
move turret to next tool using the shortest route
move head down
clamp drawbar
wait to make sure db is clamped or it drops tools
slide carousel back
make sure it is back
set tool changed flag hi


Each one of these actions has to have a check to make sure it is completed, if not you will need to at least put the machine in feedhold, if not estop. The orient should be a separate program with in/out pins so it can be called by m19 and/or by your tool change code, you will also need an m18 code to unlock the spindle. In addition, as of now EMC has no way of storing what tool is where after you power the machine down, meaning you will have to home the carousel every time you open EMC. You will also want want manual codes or buttons to manipulate the various parts of the tc if it gets out of sequence. You will definitely want a drawbar release button so you can manually put a tool in and out of the spindle and ONLY in manual mode .
Below is the program for the orient on my Brown & Sharpe mill, it uses a shot pin like a Haas, it also uses an encoder, which I dont think your haas does, I think it uses a prox switch. In addition this component shifts gears and runs the spindle from m and s codes. I wrote it in C, cause I hate ladder, but bottom line is, you are going to have to apply the same logic. Your machine may not be as complicated. This works everytime, for every orient, for every gear change.

Is this machine a geared head, hi-low belt drive or single speed belt drive?


File Attachment:

File Name: orient_201...1-2.comp
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Last edit: 12 Aug 2014 09:43 by JR1050.
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12 Aug 2014 10:27 #49734 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Right now it has no spindle encoder but i have one to install as the factory did.
I do have the hi lo gearbox . Spindle is belt driven off the gearbox.
And there is a manual release button on the spindle cover.

I will take a look at your code, thanks

For now i may just use subroutines
If i dont end up using carousel as a axis then i need to figure out some kind of
counter for tool positions using the existing prox switches, homing is a piece of cake
i can turn it until the index tool 1 prox switches and its home.

Its a 20 tool carousel, not 12 like i posted a few back.

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12 Aug 2014 10:51 #49736 by JR1050
Replied by JR1050 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
A n encoder on the spindle motor will do you no good for an orient as your spindle has a belt drive and the belts will never be in the same place, and you will never find orient with a 2 speed gearbox . The encoder will allow you to rigid tap though. To use an encoder for orient it should be driven 1:1 off the actual spindle.

programming the tool in/out button is easy, that you can do on hal.

im pretty sure a prox sensor counts each tooth of a geneva cam incrementally on the carousel.you add or subtract present tool position to next tool position.It would not have a prox switch for each pocket. You could try mounting an encoder on the shaft that turns the carousel. A 20 pos bcd one would be ideal.

homing the carousel to tool1 prox switch will require looking for it in a loop till it see's the prox switch and killing the motor,

you now also have hi-low gear to contend with. my guess is you can jog the spindle motor at about 5 rpm while activating the solenoids that shift the gears. this is how matsuura does it, unless the gears only line up in 4 spots(like the B&S) then the spindle will have to be oriented....

subroutines are not exactly safe for this type of thing, you could very easily tear the tool changer off!!! You could use subroutines with macro variables tied to hal signals, but you are right back to writing logic again, twice removed!!

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12 Aug 2014 11:29 - 12 Aug 2014 11:35 #49737 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
The spindle encoder is on the same shaft as the orient ring, and output pulley to the spindle, this is after the gearbox,
the out put pulley and the spindle pulley are 1:1 and have timing marks to keep everything oriented.
spindle encoder is 1:1 ratio also. Machines with no gearbox ran off the motor itself.

There are only two prox switches on the carousel, , and a in prox and out prox on the shuttle

I have been all over this thing now, read factory maintenance manuals etc... probably could be a pretty good HAAS tech :-)


With all the code on here i could probably snip and paste and get something going but i have no idea how to
code in C , i read it and kind of makes sense but i dont think i could do it from scratch.
Last edit: 12 Aug 2014 11:35 by sspeed33317.

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12 Aug 2014 16:22 #49744 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit

JR1050 wrote: Im not sure you can run the tool carousel as an axis, I have not worked on a Haas, but I suspect it is run by a plain motor and uses a geneva cam like a Fadal.Even if it is run by a servo and has an encoder, you will have to write a function to count angular degrees to get to you intended tool


My suggestion of configuring the carousel as an "axis" is just a way to get the required carousel position out to HAL as a target, and at the same time have it feature in the homing sequence.

The control/feedback would be fwd / rev relays and using the tool sensors as a low-count encoder. This ought to work, in the HAL layer it is all just numbers, if you can get the right outputs from the right inputs it doesn't matter what you call things.

One complication I have glossed over while I think about it is how to persuade the single-channel encoder counter to count up or down depending on which way the motor is running. I think that cunning use of LUT5 can be used to create a synthetic B-phase for the software encoder component.

Whether the carousel is configured as an axis or not is not such a big change. If it is an axis then the command to move it is G0 B[ #<tool> * 360 / 11] and if it isn't then it is M68 E0 Q[ #<tool> * 360 / 11] (or similar).

As a non-axis homing would have to be handled separately, but that isn't too hard, you could just set it moving and do a G-code wait-on-input on the index sensor then zero the encoder.

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12 Aug 2014 16:25 #49745 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit

JR1050 wrote: subroutines are not exactly safe for this type of thing, you could very easily tear the tool changer off!!! You could use subroutines with macro variables tied to hal signals, but you are right back to writing logic again, twice removed!!


As this tool-changer requires Z-axis movements I think that G-code subroutines are the way to go.
They will need to be written carefully, with time-outs and abort mechanisms.

In the final configuration the G-code subs would be built into a remapped M6 code. Remapping supports tool-change abort methods.

There is a lot to read here, but it's a very useful new feature in 2.6:
www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/remap/structure.html

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12 Aug 2014 16:30 #49746 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Note especially: www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/remap/structu...g_dealing_with_abort

This says that the "M2" codes in my sample G-code routine are a very bad idea. Luckily the remapping feature has added a new G-code comment style

(abort, abort message)

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12 Aug 2014 17:38 #49749 by Zahnrad Kopf
Replied by Zahnrad Kopf on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit

sspeed33317 wrote: The spindle encoder is on the same shaft as the orient ring, and output pulley to the spindle, this is after the gearbox,
the out put pulley and the spindle pulley are 1:1 and have timing marks to keep everything oriented.
spindle encoder is 1:1 ratio also. Machines with no gearbox ran off the motor itself.

There are only two prox switches on the carousel, , and a in prox and out prox on the shuttle


This is all very familiar. What year is this thing???? I just replaced the tool position switches 6 months ago, but unfortunately was not paying much attention to the motor at the time.

Is this a horizontal or side mounted changer? Oh, wait... never mind, you pointed out your shuttle... horizontal... okay, no delay needed for the tool pocket to flip down...

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12 Aug 2014 18:56 #49752 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Worst case i rework the shuttle and make the carousel drop instead of the Z axis.
Once i get movement then i can make parts :-)

I know its been done befrore , just no one has posted how they did it.

Maybe good idea to start a thread just for this? "Carousel ATC with Z axis"

Well, time to go to work.

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12 Aug 2014 20:38 #49761 by JR1050
Replied by JR1050 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
I thumbed thru the haas manual last nite. This uses a Geneva cam with a sensor of some sort to both count tools and indicate pocket center. In addition, it has two motors, one to move the carousel forward/back and one to rotate the carousel. I suspect both are three phase. The orient mechanism seems to work by letting the drive "coast" and firing the pin, the pin has a prox on it indicating the spindle is oriented. It appers the encoder was an option for rigid tapping. I by no means memorized the manual...
This machine is very very similar to the Leadwell RobH did in England. It might pay to ask to share. he did the tc and orient in ladder, I believe .

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