HAAS VF1 retrofit

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21 Sep 2014 12:54 #51393 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Well, I ended up picking up a twin arm tool changer.
It is brand new , two motors and one air cylinder.
The arm mechanism is cam motion. An amazing machine to study. But so simple.

Due to my lack of programming skills I think this is the best bet instead of trying to get my carousel working.
For what I got it for I couldn't pass it up.

It should be here by the end of this coming week. Will have to make a mounting bracket and align it to the spindle.

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23 Sep 2014 21:13 #51485 by JR1050
Replied by JR1050 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you really haven't gained anything . The only thing you don't have to do now is move the head up and down, you have effectively lost 4" of tool of table clearance . The cam just swaps tools, Matsuura has them also, you still have to count the tools, open and close the drawbar , get the pocket up and down ,in addition now you have the hassle of a random tool changer , which it it gets out or sequence, will be a mother to resequence. You can't save your tool locations with out some programming, although the tool table might if random tool changer is set to 1. Good luck, but I think you just made your job a bit more complicated.

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28 Sep 2014 11:35 #51621 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
The new tool changer arrived Thursday, it is smaller than I thought.
I don't think I am going to loose any clearance I can mount it a little higher then
the current carousel is, remember the spindle has to move up for the tool change.

The whole moving the Z axis is the main reason I decided to do this.

Now I can do the whole tool change in ladder logic. I am really weak in programming.

I am guessing when Tool change is set to random the program calls
the pocket number instead of the tool number ??

The tool changer is made by Gifu and I am sending a request to see if they
have a ladder program written for it.

It has about 6 proximity switches on it and two motors with brakes.

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28 Sep 2014 20:03 #51627 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit

sspeed33317 wrote: The whole moving the Z axis is the main reason I decided to do this.
....
Now I can do the whole tool change in ladder logic. I am really weak in programming.


Why did you reject the idea of using a G-code routine to perform the tool change? That makes moving the Z really quite easy.

Or does your programming weakness also include G-code?

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29 Sep 2014 06:25 #51640 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
I understand g code a little , this is a hobby interest that I want to grow into a
full time job someday , unfortunately my main job gets in the way and i tend to head
straight home after work instead of going over to my shop to work on the machine.
And my shop is on the other side of town.

So I havent been able to spend a whole lot of time on it lately. I am only about 4-5 hours of wiring
away from having it working ,with exception of the the tool changer.

The learning curve is sort of intimidating. Recently I almost caved in and bought Camsoft
I built a machine with my old boss about 10 years ago and it was a piece of cake with Camsoft.

Coding something for a C component is probably out of the question, ladder logic doesnt look
too bad, I am trying to find a good book.

Subroutines will work but Id rather not have to modify the way the tool changer works
I think I would have to install a encoder and treat the tool magazine as a axis .

I found a few ladder programs that will work for the indexing of the magazine with just
a zero switch and a pocket switch.

I just have to spend more time on it and I am working on getting a new place to live with a
workshop/garage , all my leases are coming up in November. So I'm running out of time.

If I can get this thing working, install the twin arm changer and get it working it will be a huge
accomplishment.

I wish someone with experience with LinuxCNC lived close by, would make things so much easier.

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29 Sep 2014 07:15 #51641 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit

sspeed33317 wrote: And my shop is on the other side of town.

That is likely to be a big obstacle.
Can you bring sub-systems home?

The learning curve is sort of intimidating. Recently I almost caved in and bought Camsoft
I built a machine with my old boss about 10 years ago and it was a piece of cake with Camsoft.

A Boss without a toolchange is pretty easy with LinuxCNC too. That's a stepper system. There is even a config for a Boss system included as a sample config with LinuxCNC. I don't think that Camsoft would necessarily be easier with the Haas than LinuxCNC. (It might be, but the Boss comparison won't tell us that)

Coding something for a C component is probably out of the question, ladder logic doesnt look
too bad, I am trying to find a good book.

I have always thought that I should learn ladder, but I have aways found other ways. I didn't know any C at all until I started playing with LinuxCNC. But I had programmed in other languages, to that's not an entirely fair comparison. I had to learn G-code from scratch too. C is a lot easier than G-code.

Subroutines will work but Id rather not have to modify the way the tool changer works
I think I would have to install a encoder and treat the tool magazine as a axis .

I admit that I have lost track of which machine is which, and it is too late here to read back through the thread, but isn't this a system with a Geneva mechanism and a motor? If the original machine managed to work by running a motor then stopping the motor when the right tool appeared, then so can LinuxCNC. If the original system worked, then LinuxCNC can operate it.

I wish someone with experience with LinuxCNC lived close by, would make things so much easier.

The User Map shows 30 users in FL, but no names I recognise. But don't underestimate how effective the forum can be (and IRC even more so, for real-time chat)
The following user(s) said Thank You: sspeed33317

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29 Sep 2014 07:39 #51642 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
On the machine is a geneva mechanism carousel.

The twin arm magazine works very similar , it is a roller cam, one rotation moves the magazine one tool,

The arm is a dual action cam, the side action moves the arm up and down, the circumference is
machined to do the rotation of the arm.

On the new changer it has a rotating drum that is timed to trigger proximity switches which
tell the controller when the arm is home, when to release the tool , when to clamp the tool and when
tool change is completed. the pocket tilt is operated by a air cylinder.

When I said boss, I meant my employer :-) , but the machine was a Bridgeport too. I just visited
him a few weeks ago and its all apart again, upgrading to AC servos.

It may be good for me to put a shout out to user in Florida and see who responds.

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30 Sep 2014 10:35 #51677 by JR1050
Replied by JR1050 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
I live in central Florida . Programming in Camsoft uses a similar to Basic lauguage , yes it has a graphical user interface, but it's not ladder. I seriously doubt you are just slam that tool changer on the machine and get it working. First off the tc has to mounted perfectly parallel to the. Spindle and square to the table, then the arm has to be exactly in the middle of the spindle taper, or it will drop tools,smash one side of the taper and or hammer the drive keys on the spindle. Moving it up could make the whole thing worse , as if you are lucky, the casting is drilled and reamed for both toolchangers , the chances of you getting that mounted straight are not real good, then you will either have to shim and or scrape to get alignment. You still gotta count tools. Cam operated tc are not new, Brown and Sharpe had them in the 1970s....

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04 Oct 2014 07:20 - 04 Oct 2014 07:37 #51775 by sspeed33317
Replied by sspeed33317 on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
Well I found a new workshop to rent, it is big enough to fit all of my stuff in one place.
So the next few weekends I will be moving again.
Then hopefully I can get back to working on the machine again.
Last edit: 04 Oct 2014 07:37 by sspeed33317.

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02 Nov 2014 18:55 - 02 Nov 2014 23:05 #52687 by uli12us
Replied by uli12us on topic HAAS VF1 retrofit
I have read the thread, because I have to integrate a toolchanger in my machine. At the moment I try to make the mesa cards run. Well after that In need the ATC. But its much more complicated than the simple Pickup type.
Not really, because I don't need to shift the Z-Axis while changing. But I have much more positions I must call in the right direction. My Machine have 2 independent tool arms and the arms were at a 90° rotate head.
So I have much outputs and nearly double of it inputs, because nearly each position is proofed with 1 proximity switch on each end. Is it possible to make a M-funktion of each partfunction. The original had it, what makes it easy, if an error is happened during the changing, I can simple get back or advance with it.
Because the toolchain is an independent numeric axis I prefer to turn it to the position of the released tool while the changing is running. That seems me better than the chaotic toolchanging, what sspeed have with his new Doublearm changer. I know LCC can use both, but if I have to change a damaged tool during work, its easier to access the right tool, if I don't must first search a list, whats the actual position of my desired tool.
Last edit: 02 Nov 2014 23:05 by uli12us.

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