Roland mdx-650a question
22 Nov 2013 10:44 #41105
by nick gill
Replied by nick gill on topic Roland mdx-650a question
Hi Andy.
I got this back today:
Based on the details of your current motor spindle output power, rpm etc. we could suggest the following two spindle systems for your consideration:
Ref. 112013-011;
System A.
Item 1 SLF HF Precision Motor Spindle DC Type FS45-50/1.0DC
Per attached drawing and photo image;
DC brushless motor, air cooled, hybrid ceramic bearings,
Max. 50.000 rpm, 1.0 kW
With pneumatic taper tool change Type ISO
With taper and collet, Max. clamping range 6.3 mm (1/4”)
With sealing air flow, PTC thermistor;
Including:
1 ea. 2.0 m Operating Cable
1 ea. taper tool holder, lock nut and ¼” collet:
Item 2 1 ea. BMR Frequency Converter Mod. SFU0303 DC
230V, 50/60 Hz, per attached Operating Manual;
Price: $ $ 8.670.00 pckg.
System B.
Item 1 JAEGER HF Precision Motor Spindle and Drive System
Series CHOPPER Type 1500 HSK per attached specifications;
AC brushless motor air cooled, life lubricated spindle bearings,
Max. 30.000 rpm, S1 continuous output power: 1.5 kW
With pneumatic taper tool change system and
HSK E25 tool system;
Max. clamping range: 10.0 mm
With sealing air flow, Thermistor protection;
Including:
1 ea. 2.0 m operating motor cable and seal air hoses;
1 ea. JAEGER Frequency Converter Combivert 2,8 kVA
suitable and pre-programmed for the above spindle,
With sinus filter, brake resistor and “digital operator”
Price: $ 10.870.00 pckg.
Well that's annoying since I said I only wanted 300-600W, and for those prices, I can buy an entire machine with a 1.5KW spindle !
I got this back today:
Based on the details of your current motor spindle output power, rpm etc. we could suggest the following two spindle systems for your consideration:
Ref. 112013-011;
System A.
Item 1 SLF HF Precision Motor Spindle DC Type FS45-50/1.0DC
Per attached drawing and photo image;
DC brushless motor, air cooled, hybrid ceramic bearings,
Max. 50.000 rpm, 1.0 kW
With pneumatic taper tool change Type ISO
With taper and collet, Max. clamping range 6.3 mm (1/4”)
With sealing air flow, PTC thermistor;
Including:
1 ea. 2.0 m Operating Cable
1 ea. taper tool holder, lock nut and ¼” collet:
Item 2 1 ea. BMR Frequency Converter Mod. SFU0303 DC
230V, 50/60 Hz, per attached Operating Manual;
Price: $ $ 8.670.00 pckg.
System B.
Item 1 JAEGER HF Precision Motor Spindle and Drive System
Series CHOPPER Type 1500 HSK per attached specifications;
AC brushless motor air cooled, life lubricated spindle bearings,
Max. 30.000 rpm, S1 continuous output power: 1.5 kW
With pneumatic taper tool change system and
HSK E25 tool system;
Max. clamping range: 10.0 mm
With sealing air flow, Thermistor protection;
Including:
1 ea. 2.0 m operating motor cable and seal air hoses;
1 ea. JAEGER Frequency Converter Combivert 2,8 kVA
suitable and pre-programmed for the above spindle,
With sinus filter, brake resistor and “digital operator”
Price: $ 10.870.00 pckg.
Well that's annoying since I said I only wanted 300-600W, and for those prices, I can buy an entire machine with a 1.5KW spindle !
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22 Nov 2013 18:05 #41109
by andypugh
This sounds like a problem with either the Hall sensors or the motor phases being wired in the wrong sequence.
I don't know much about the Pico drivers, you might need to ask the question in the Pico section of the forum where Jon Elson will see it.
Replied by andypugh on topic Roland mdx-650a question
in positive direction, moves vibrated, sometimes does not move, you feel a buzz in the engine,
This sounds like a problem with either the Hall sensors or the motor phases being wired in the wrong sequence.
I don't know much about the Pico drivers, you might need to ask the question in the Pico section of the forum where Jon Elson will see it.
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22 Nov 2013 18:15 #41110
by andypugh
But can you get a complete machine + spidle with a toolchanger?
eBay is awash with cheap spindle drives and inverters, but once you add in a toolchanger the prices get a lot higher.
Looking on Aliexpress:
www.aliexpress.com/item/atc-spindle-for-...enter/928614149.html
You will see that is 10x as expensive as one with just an ER16 spindle nose.
(And if you go up to BT30 size, things get even more expensive)
Note that there is also no drive or air controller included in the Aliexpress price.
Replied by andypugh on topic Roland mdx-650a question
Well that's annoying since I said I only wanted 300-600W, and for those prices, I can buy an entire machine with a 1.5KW spindle !
But can you get a complete machine + spidle with a toolchanger?
eBay is awash with cheap spindle drives and inverters, but once you add in a toolchanger the prices get a lot higher.
Looking on Aliexpress:
www.aliexpress.com/item/atc-spindle-for-...enter/928614149.html
You will see that is 10x as expensive as one with just an ER16 spindle nose.
(And if you go up to BT30 size, things get even more expensive)
Note that there is also no drive or air controller included in the Aliexpress price.
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22 Nov 2013 18:20 #41111
by nick gill
Replied by nick gill on topic Roland mdx-650a question
I'm thinking of a used machine Andy when I wrote that, which of course brings many other troubles also.
Anyway, regardless of value, I cannot afford these new german spindles. I was hoping for 2000-3000 euros total upgrade cost. I guess Im dreaming
Anyway, regardless of value, I cannot afford these new german spindles. I was hoping for 2000-3000 euros total upgrade cost. I guess Im dreaming
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28 Nov 2013 12:39 - 29 Nov 2013 04:55 #41197
by nick gill
Replied by nick gill on topic Roland mdx-650a question
I have discovered some more about this shitty Nidec motor on the 'scope:
AC delta config, 90V RMS @15KHz.. PWM. Idling at 1500 rpm requires 14% duty cycle, 6000 RPM 50% duty cycle.
On the drive side it uses a Mitsubishi IGBT integrated power module PS11013. At least I can exchange this 400W block for a 750W or 1500W block.
I think my only choice is to use a 1.5KW domestic 110V motor like a hand-held router motor, and get my required spindle speed by retaining the 2:1 belt drive, and making it 3:1.
Looking inside the sensors tonight...
AC delta config, 90V RMS @15KHz.. PWM. Idling at 1500 rpm requires 14% duty cycle, 6000 RPM 50% duty cycle.
On the drive side it uses a Mitsubishi IGBT integrated power module PS11013. At least I can exchange this 400W block for a 750W or 1500W block.
I think my only choice is to use a 1.5KW domestic 110V motor like a hand-held router motor, and get my required spindle speed by retaining the 2:1 belt drive, and making it 3:1.
Looking inside the sensors tonight...
Last edit: 29 Nov 2013 04:55 by nick gill. Reason: new information
The following user(s) said Thank You: jlviloria
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28 Nov 2013 18:40 #41204
by andypugh
$1880 for the Chinese Spindle
$200 for a matching VFD
$400 shipping
= US$2500 = €1823 = £1520 = NZ$3040
I think you can do it inside your budget. LinuxCNC can handle the changer logic in software.
Replied by andypugh on topic Roland mdx-650a question
I was hoping for 2000-3000 euros total upgrade cost. I guess Im dreaming
$1880 for the Chinese Spindle
$200 for a matching VFD
$400 shipping
= US$2500 = €1823 = £1520 = NZ$3040
I think you can do it inside your budget. LinuxCNC can handle the changer logic in software.
The following user(s) said Thank You: nick gill
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30 Nov 2013 15:00 #41242
by nick gill
Replied by nick gill on topic Roland mdx-650a question
Hi Jorge
I found the datasheet for the Panasonic 8899 spindle hall sensors today.
Here it is pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/panasonic/DN8899SE.pdf
The permanent magnet has four flats 90 degrees apart on its rotor. Three hall sensors are arranged 60 degrees apart between the windings.
Is their any other information you require?
I found the datasheet for the Panasonic 8899 spindle hall sensors today.
Here it is pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/panasonic/DN8899SE.pdf
The permanent magnet has four flats 90 degrees apart on its rotor. Three hall sensors are arranged 60 degrees apart between the windings.
Is their any other information you require?
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30 Nov 2013 22:09 #41262
by andypugh
You first need to get the motors working. The PID controller really complicates things there.
I always start without a PId controller, manually set the motor current to a small value, then adjust the Hall sensor order until the motor spins properly, then check that is spins properly in the reverse direction.
Only when I am sure that the motor is working properly with the drive do I introduce the PID into the system.
Replied by andypugh on topic Roland mdx-650a question
turned to connect a single servo motor home, but now what I wrote about in the previous post.
in negative direction, moves well, sometimes you have to give a touch to the motor shaft to move
in positive direction, moves vibrated, sometimes does not move, you feel a buzz in the engine,
I changed the PID, up and down P, play with D but nothing's the same with all servomotors and all drivers
You first need to get the motors working. The PID controller really complicates things there.
I always start without a PId controller, manually set the motor current to a small value, then adjust the Hall sensor order until the motor spins properly, then check that is spins properly in the reverse direction.
Only when I am sure that the motor is working properly with the drive do I introduce the PID into the system.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jlviloria
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04 Dec 2013 19:31 #41337
by nick gill
Replied by nick gill on topic Roland mdx-650a question
Here's the wiring schematic for you Jorge
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05 Dec 2013 02:14 #41339
by jlviloria
Replied by jlviloria on topic Roland mdx-650a question
Thanks Nick, that incredible help.
Nick, the Z axis brake (solenoid) works at 24VDC?
thanks,
Jorge Viloria.
Nick, the Z axis brake (solenoid) works at 24VDC?
thanks,
Jorge Viloria.
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