Centroid CNC4

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21 Jun 2011 21:54 #10738 by tpwjayson
Replied by tpwjayson on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
I have the exact same setup, same boards, same motors.

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21 Jun 2011 22:08 - 21 Jun 2011 22:10 #10739 by forhire
Replied by forhire on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
tpwjayson wrote:

I have the exact same setup, same boards, same motors.


Are you planning on using the control as is via the serial terminal or do you have all the parts to make it work with emc2? If your doing a conversion, I would be interest to know what was required to convert it.
Last edit: 21 Jun 2011 22:10 by forhire.

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22 Jun 2011 00:21 #10742 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
There are three separate stepper drives, I think. I guess the first thing to do would be to work out what data is being sent to them.
Then figure out how to get the same from EMC2.

I suspect that it won't be step/direction, most probably a 4-wire signal, but EMC2 can do that too.

Looks like a job for a scope.

Alternatively, does a working Centroid controller have any market value? A mini-itx board and a set of modern stepper drives will cost about $300 using parport control. budget about twice that for a Pico or Mesa setup.

And to answer an earlier question, no EMC2 does not do DMC. EMC2 is a motion controller, its main job is to interpret G code and convert to velocities and positions.

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22 Jun 2011 01:29 - 22 Jun 2011 01:33 #10744 by forhire
Replied by forhire on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
andypugh wrote:

Alternatively, does a working Centroid controller have any market value? A mini-itx board and a set of modern stepper drives will cost about $300 using parport control. budget about twice that for a Pico or Mesa setup.


With the few parts that would be salvageable from the control it would likely be easier to build up from scratch. A working control would likely find life on another machine around the shop.

The real issue I have with the current control is that it lacks helical interpolation and very limited memory. I'm sure the emc2 interpolation is faster and more accurate than this old control.

I spoke with Centroid and all their controls now use servos. I spoke with MachMotion (super helpful by the way) and they suggested some newer 960 oz steppers, if I stayed with steppers. They said the new steppers were faster and more accurate. 1.8 degree is 1.8 degree... not sure the new steppers offered anything. Is that correct?

The MAE steppers are power hungry 7.1 amps unipolar and 10 amps bipolar. The manual states they are wired parallel, is that unipolar or bipolar? Should I put on newer steppers? Any recommendations for drives? I've looked at geckos. Will the Pico Universal Stepper Controller handle my steppers? It looks like the pico can read the encoders.

What size power supply will I need?

Update: I read more on the Pico Universal Stepper Controller... it drives a driver. I guess I'll need a few geckos... now to find the correct size!
Last edit: 22 Jun 2011 01:33 by forhire.

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22 Jun 2011 01:58 #10745 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
forhire wrote:

andypugh wrote:

'm sure the emc2 interpolation is faster and more accurate than this old control.

Yes, you should find that there are big improvements in speed with EMC2.

I spoke with Centroid and all their controls now use servos. I spoke with MachMotion (super helpful by the way) and they suggested some newer 960 oz steppers, if I stayed with steppers.

If you are changing everything, then switching to servos might be worth considering.

The MAE steppers are power hungry 7.1 amps unipolar and 10 amps bipolar. The manual states they are wired parallel, is that unipolar or bipolar?

I think parallel implies bipolar.

Should I put on newer steppers?

Magnets have improved a lot, you should see a performance increase

Any recommendations for drives? I've looked at geckos.

There are others, and I have never used Geckos. I have no specific recommendations. My machine uses a Mesa 7i43 and fairly standard black-aluminium-box stepper drives from Motion Control Products
I think you can probably run the whole machine from the parallel port, but that very quickly runs out of pins.
I thought that Pico did a stepper drive, but I can't see it.

Mesa have a stepper drive that plugs directly into their FPGA card, but I can't find a price.

What size power supply will I need?

I think the power supply is one part I would keep. From the sound of things it is more than adequately powered, and it is already there and wired.

What does the Centroid do with the encoders? They don't add much to a stepper system, other than following-error detection.

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22 Jun 2011 02:35 #10746 by tpwjayson
Replied by tpwjayson on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
So all this is basically new to me. Never done any CNC or programming stuff before. Maybe the original post should have been something more like "How do I get this machine into the 21st century?". I spoke with a few different sales people at different companies and to have someone upgrade the machine for me would be around 3k which isn't out of my price range but it would be nice to get the machine running for less. Maybe someone could direct me further as how to proceed.

forhire, you mentioned gtkterm? How does this work? Does it just feed the machine gcode line by line? Maybe something like this would be my best option for now just to get started.

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22 Jun 2011 03:42 #10747 by forhire
Replied by forhire on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
tpwjayson wrote:

So all this is basically new to me. Never done any CNC or programming stuff before. Maybe the original post should have been something more like "How do I get this machine into the 21st century?". I spoke with a few different sales people at different companies and to have someone upgrade the machine for me would be around 3k which isn't out of my price range but it would be nice to get the machine running for less. Maybe someone could direct me further as how to proceed.

forhire, you mentioned gtkterm? How does this work? Does it just feed the machine gcode line by line? Maybe something like this would be my best option for now just to get started.


With a terminal (gtkterm, minicom, procomm, etc) you connect to the control and are given a menu. You can load files into memory (option 7) if it's under a 1000 lines or so. Larger programs you can feed line by line (see the attached image). The controller supports a bunch of canned functions as well as loops and stuff. I've never exceeded the space with hand written programs.

If you have a working control, then the fastest and most logical way to get your feet wet will be to use the machine as is, because it's working! Spend some time learning to write gcode and do some stuff. I have used my cnc4 for a lot of years and just recently really started feeling the itch to upgrade.

Do you have a computer that can use for your terminal? Is it windows or linux?

Does the computer have a serial port? Most desktops have one or two DB9 connectors, as do older laptops. Newer machines you may need a usb to serial dongle.

Do you have the CNC4 manual? I was talking to someone at Centroid this week... he was very familiar with the controller... it's possible they would send you a copy.
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22 Jun 2011 03:57 #10748 by forhire
Replied by forhire on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
andypugh wrote:

What size power supply will I need?

I think the power supply is one part I would keep. From the sound of things it is more than adequately powered, and it is already there and wired.

What does the Centroid do with the encoders? They don't add much to a stepper system, other than following-error detection.


I think I'd build a new power supply rather than gutting a working control. I built one for a hobbycnc and the Centroid looks amazingly similar aside from the transformer being about twice the size :)

In watching the Centroid it would appear that the machine will catchup or correct based on the encoder feedback. For all it's shortcomings it's repeatability is pretty good.

I think your right about the servos. I think if I do this I'll build a new control with servos and basically pull this unit complete. The quote I got from MachMotion with servos was just over 5k. I think I could easily build a emc2 control for much less.

This is on a Lagun (bridgeport style) knee mill with ball screws. Any guess as to the size of servos required? I kinda glassed over when I was talking to MachMotion and he was rambling on about servos.

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22 Jun 2011 04:10 - 22 Jun 2011 04:11 #10749 by forhire
Replied by forhire on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
Hey tpwjayson, another question.

How is your X axis stepper mounted? Mine is mounted sweeping back and down... which really cuts my travel X axis. It has been this way forever. A couple of times I have thought about rotating it up and forward so it can clear the knee. The manual states it should be up and forward... I think mine is backwards. Could you send me a picture of your X axis if it's forward... I'd like to see if it would be worth the time to fix it. This is a picture of mine. Thanks.

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Last edit: 22 Jun 2011 04:11 by forhire.

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22 Jun 2011 11:08 #10759 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic Re:Centroid CNC4
forhire wrote:

andypugh wrote:

I think your right about the servos. I think if I do this I'll build a new control with servos and basically pull this unit complete. The quote I got from MachMotion with servos was just over 5k. I think I could easily build a emc2 control for much less.


To be fair, I am not sure I would want to do the conversion for much less than that (not that I am in the conversions business). I think that sounds like a decent price for a turnkey solution.

However, for you own conversion you can make your own choices. The biggest saving might well be to get some servos from eBay.

EMC2 can control any analogue or PWM input servo drives, so matched pairs of motors and drives probably make for an easy conversion.
There are also solutions with tighter integration into EMC2. I like the Mesa 8i20 brushless drive, but support for that is only in the 2.5 version of EMC2 which isn't yet on full release (but is very much usable)

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