retrofit on EMCO PC turn 55

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06 Jun 2012 09:35 #20673 by andypugh
What parts do you have? If you still have the original stepper drives, and if they take step/dir signals then it is a pretty easy conversion.
My shopping list would probably be
Intel BOXD525MW $80
8 GB SATA DOM $40
60W PicoPSU $30
Mesa 5i25 $80
Mesa 7i76 $120

Then keep the existing drives and stepper motors.

Alternatives include the Pico PPMC USC. for £250 for the control card. You might also consider the new Intel DN2800MT motherboard which runs direct from a 12V supply (which probably exists in the case). It will work with the PPMC / USC as that uses the parallel port for communication, but as it has PCIe rather then PCI you would need to change the 5i25 to a 6i25 if going the Mesa route.

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item...813121442&Tpk=D525MW
www.mesanet.com/ (Anything IO FPGA cards section)
www.pico-systems.com/univstep.html

If the motors are 5-wire and all the wires are used, then that means that they are being drive by Unipolar drives. This isn't a bad thing, necessarily, as it was clearly adequate when the machine was built. You can run a 5-wire motor with a bipolar supply simply by ignoring the centre tap as described here: www.stepperworld.com/Tutorials/pgBipolarTutorial.htm but I doubt that the increased performance would justify the expense, and might just lead to overheated motors.

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06 Jun 2012 13:18 #20677 by jd896
that looks a nice machine that andy even supplys a molex connecter and sata hdds from (the 12volt input) no need for a psu at all just a nice compact 12v din rail psu

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07 Jun 2012 03:18 #20695 by chuck1024
I didn't even try to use ANY of the existing electronics. I just didn't think it was worth the effort and I didn't have sufficient documentation to try it.

I bought Kelinginc KL23256-21-8B steppers. They are physically the same size as the original motors but I'm pretty sure they have significantly more torque. OEM max speed is 30 IPM but I run the new motors at double that and they will even go tripple but I don't think that is a good idea for a number of reasons. Also keep in mind the original motors are 5 wire motors and you may have trouble finding drives to run them. Another piece of important info is the original motors are NOT NEMA motors. The shaft is smaller and the mounting holes are spaced differently. I had to modify the mounting plates and drill out the pulleys to fit on the new motor shaft.

These motors in bipolar parallel are a VERY good match to a Gecko G540. I used the G540 because it is cheap and works very well. It has the VFD interface built in that you will need to control a new VFD to run the existing 3 phase spindle motor. Kelinginc has a excellent price on them as well.

I used the original 24 VDC power supply because I needed 24 VDC for the turret. I was a little concerned that 24 volts might not be enough for high speed stepping but it worked out fine.

The only items I had to buy were:
2 steppers at $30 each
1 G540 at $240
1 GE TECO VFD at $120 (from dealers electric ). I used a 1 HP FM50 with 120V input 240V 3 phase output.

I am using an old PC with 2 parallel ports. the second port is needed for the turret.

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07 Jun 2012 09:52 #20701 by andypugh
chuck1024 wrote:

Also keep in mind the original motors are 5 wire motors and you may have trouble finding drives to run them


As I said, you can run a 5-wire motor on any drive. On a bipolar drive you ignore the centre tap wire and leave it unconnected. On a unipolar drive, it is the 0v return wire.

There are two HAL components for controlling different types of that class of lathe tool holder here:
wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Contri...oolchanger_component

Are the original motor drives step/dir or do they use an alternative (serial?) interface like the Boxfords originally did?

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07 Jun 2012 12:45 #20712 by chuck1024
When I did my conversion, I was misinformed that the 5 wire motors were oddballs and not compatible with gecko drives.

I do not know the EMCO driver interface. I read in another forum that they are step/direction drives but EMCO refused to release any info on products they currently support. Frankly I didn't think it was worth the time to reverse engineer electronics hardware that is almost 20 years old anyway. What are you going to do when one of the old drives fail? Either pay a lot to replace it with more old hardware or do an upgrade. I chose to gut all the old hardware and install a G540. In the process, I remove the entire red cabinet on the back of the lathe and installed the G540 and old transformer in the lathe cabinet. I have less than 500 dollars invested for 2 steppers, a G540 and a VFD.

I wrote a component to control the tool turret. Most of the discussion is in another thread. I can post the code in that thread when jrkeat gets to that point in his conversion.

chuck

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07 Jun 2012 14:30 - 07 Jun 2012 14:35 #20715 by jrkeat
So I shouldn't have trouble running the original motors, as long as I don't mind the original slower speed?

As far as the computer is concerened, what are the constraints? For example, could I use on of my laptops and just buy a pair of USB-> DB25 parallel adapters? It has been 10 years since I used any version of Lunux, and at the time it was pretty finicky about hardware compatibility--I'm not sure if this has changed or not. I'm also not sure if come components meet real-time demands, while other don't.
Last edit: 07 Jun 2012 14:35 by jrkeat.

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07 Jun 2012 15:35 #20716 by andypugh
jrkeat wrote:

So I shouldn't have trouble running the original motors, as long as I don't mind the original slower speed?

Yes. Which sounds like it might be easier if you don't have a way to make adapter plates.

As far as the computer is concerened, what are the constraints? For example, could I use on of my laptops and just buy a pair of USB-> DB25 parallel adapters?.

The main constraint is, no USB. It has too high a latency (and the USB-parallel convertors don't give a proper parallal port, they are only useful for printers as the pins are not (typically) individually addressable

I would look at fitting a mini-ITX board inside the existing case. The Intel BOXD425MW is very cheap and known to work well with LinuxCNC. It has one onboard parallel port. You would need to count pins carefully to see if that is enough.

One possible upgrade would be to add a Mesa 5i25 and the 7i76 board (for more IO, much faster step rates and built-in VFD control.)

If it was my lathe, and because I have some nice little NEMA23 brushless servos, I would be looking at a D525MW, 5i23 and 7i39 combination.

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07 Jun 2012 17:39 #20721 by jrkeat
How would the D525MW work? Chuck says the job requires a DB25 for the turret, and either the Gecko or the 7i39 requires another. So two DB25 parallel ports, which seems like its one more than the D525MW can be set up for.

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07 Jun 2012 18:24 #20722 by andypugh
jrkeat wrote:

How would the D525MW work? Chuck says the job requires a DB25 for the turret, and either the Gecko or the 7i39 requires another. So two DB25 parallel ports, which seems like its one more than the D525MW can be set up for.


You may need to add a PCI parallel port card in addition to the onboard one. As I said, you will need to count pins to work out what is required. The Gecko is wired to use a complete parport, but individual drives can be wired individually.
The parport has either 12 outputs and 5 inputs or 4 outputs and 13 inputs.
4 outputs is not enough to drive s axes and the turret, so the question is whether 5 inputs is enough to handle the axis limits and the turret. You need 2 lines for the X limit and Z limit (though it is actually possible to share them, if you really need to). That leaves 3 lines for the turret. I don't know how many it needs.

The 7i39 actually uses a connector on a Mesa PCI card, so is a completely different thing. (It is a brushless motor drive for connection to the Mesa 5i20, 5i22, 5i23 or 7i43 cards)

If you actually meant the 5i25 then the point is that 5i25 connector _looks_ like a DB25, but is actually rather different and configurable. You can connect (for example) a 7i76 with 5 channels of step/dir stepper control, 48 lines of digital IO, and a +/-10V line for the spindle VFD. Then you can connect another 48 IO card to the expansion port on the 7i76, and if you really want to get silly, add another 8 x 48 channel IO cards to the expansion header on the 5i25.
Or the pinout of that DB25 can be identical to a Parport and drive the Gecko G540 drive mentioned earlier, but you still get the option of adding another 8 cards to the expansion header, or a second Gecko G540. It's all down to the magic of firmware.

TBH I don't see much point adding extra parport cards when the $80 5i25 offers so much more in the same footprint. But also bear in mind that many PCI parport cards are dual-headed.

Also I want to make it clear that the 7i76 board does not drive stepper motors directly, it is more of a smart breakout board to which stepper drives such as Gecko / Leadshine / TB6540 / Original Emco drives are connected.

I think you are going to need to spend a minimum of $120 to get the machine working. You can spend a lot more, for an incrementally better result. I have been trying to describe the least-cost method.

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07 Jun 2012 19:49 #20728 by chuck1024
The G540 has 4 inputs. I used 1 for Z axis home switch and 1 for X axis home switch.

Originally I used the other 2 inputs for the spindle encoder which worked fine. However the interface was a bit ackward because the G540 inputs are internally pulled up to +12 and the EMCO optical interrupters are 5 volt parts. This means I needed to use an open collector buffer to shift from +5 to +12.

When I started looking at the tool turret, it required 2 more inputs so I was forced to add another parallel port. Since the EMCO optical encoders are already buffered and debounced and 5 volt parts, I connected both the spindle encoder and turret encoder directly to the second parallel port without a break out board. The optical encoders already provided the necessary isolation. So in summary the second parallel port is only used for 4 inputs. (2 spindle encoder and 2 turret encoder). The home switches are still connected to the G540. I still have 2 inputs left of the G540 for things like a touch probe if I ever choose to add something.

The G540 has 2 outputs. One is used to drive a relay that turns on the VFD. The other is used to move the tool turret using the existing tool turret control board.

The G540 has a VFD speed interface. One DB25 pin has a PWM signal that is converted to 0-10 volts that control the VFD speed.

All in all, the G540 is a fairly complete package. Yes there are 2 drives in it that are not used and that wastes 4 output pins but I didn't need them anyway. I looked at alternative solutions but I could not find anything that was cheaper. Keling Inc sells the G540 for $240.

cs

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